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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 12:54 pm 
BoTM & rBoTM Winner
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RichardJB wrote:
I'm trying to identify an old CB bike I found hidden at the back of my father in laws garage. It's had a repaint at some point and is pretty filthy.
Thanks to the great info from Peachy! and http://www.nkilgariff.com, I think I'm nearly there.
From the frame number it's a 1954 bike without any brazed lugs. From the 1954 catalogue, it looks like a Jubilee but there are some anomaly's:
It has GB Coureur brakes (from better models) and a grease point on the bottom bracket.
It also has straight bars (later addition?) and the chainring & pedals are replacements.

My first thought was to do a full restoration but I haven't attempted anything on this scale before - am I mad?!
Any thoughts and identification help would be gratefully received.
Cheers, Richard.



My pleasure Richard and welcome to the forum.

You’ve already taken the first step into this hobby by correctly identifying this Jubilee.. looks like it would have been in green flamboyant, similar to mine (see name link in signature below)

Plenty of people on here will happily help you along the way.

First job, start a build thread on “readers road bikes” post a bunch of photos and as much background history you might have. The usual suspects will soon pull a chair.... :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: CB Identification
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 7:53 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 08, 2020 5:38 pm
Posts: 3
I have an old Claud Butler bike that I got off a friend and restored in 1981. Now when I restored it I went to Ken Ryle's in Hounslow to buy the bits I needed, now being a bit of a purist he refused to sell me the bits until I took the frame to him to be checked. When he looked at the frame he said I was mad as it was a 1957 frame which probably had metal fatigue and I should get him to build me a new bike.
I bought new alloy wheels and crank, gears and chain and rebuilt it. Now I believe it is a 60's or 70's original and looks like a 5 speed Super Coureur from the position of the pump lugs and the center pull weinmann's
Now the bottom bracket has a four digit number 0050, is it possible that this could be a custom build number?
Any ideas appreciated.
Graham


Attachments:
Crank1.jpg
Crank1.jpg [ 1.71 MiB | Viewed 166 times ]
Bottom Crank - right 2 digits.jpg
Bottom Crank - right 2 digits.jpg [ 1.49 MiB | Viewed 166 times ]
Bottom Crank - left 2 digits.jpg
Bottom Crank - left 2 digits.jpg [ 1.52 MiB | Viewed 166 times ]
RearBrake.jpg
RearBrake.jpg [ 1.98 MiB | Viewed 166 times ]
Frame2.jpg
Frame2.jpg [ 1.71 MiB | Viewed 166 times ]
Frame1.jpg
Frame1.jpg [ 2.38 MiB | Viewed 166 times ]
CB Metal logo never removed.jpg
CB Metal logo never removed.jpg [ 2.87 MiB | Viewed 166 times ]
File comment: When I restored the bike (1981) I converted the front crank set so I could run 10 gears. The front set changeover cable I araldited in place which is why to see the frame number I have taken two pictures as one digit is obscured by the cable.
In the left crank picture there is a small 4, half the size of the frame number which I take to be an assembly or inspector mark.
Thanks for the help

Weinmann alloy rims fitted 1981.jpg
Weinmann alloy rims fitted 1981.jpg [ 1.69 MiB | Viewed 167 times ]


Last edited by Aviator on Sat May 09, 2020 9:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 8:37 pm 
Old School Hero

Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:32 pm
Posts: 199
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Graham,

Would be very helpful to see a load of pics, full frame, serial, lug detail, seat cluster, all braze-ons, dropouts, rear brake bridge (straight or curved) and position of oiler (if any) on BB. Any recollection of original decals if repainted? Any history from friend re original date of purchase.

Hard to know what serial system it might fit in without this info.

Doug


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 Post subject: Re: CB Identification
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 8:38 pm 
BoTM & rBoTM Winner
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Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:42 pm
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Aviator wrote:
I have an old Claud Butler bike that I got off a friend and restored in 1981. Now when I restored it I went to Ken Ryle's in Hounslow to buy the bits I needed, now being a bit of a purist he refused to sell me the bits until I took the frame to him to be checked. When he looked at the frame he said I was mad as it was a 1957 frame which probably had metal fatigue and I should get him to build me a new bike.
I bought new alloy wheels and crank, gears and chain and rebuilt it. Now I believe it is a 60's or 70's original and looks like a 5 speed Super Coureur from the position of the pump lugs and the center pull weinmann's
Now the bottom bracket has a four digit number 0050, is it possible that this could be a custom build number?
Any ideas appreciated.
Graham


No idea till you post some detailed photos I’m afraid.


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 Post subject: Re: CB Identification
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 9:59 pm 
Newbie

Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:53 pm
Posts: 5
Aviator wrote:
I have an old Claud Butler bike that I got off a friend and restored in 1981. Now when I restored it I went to Ken Ryle's in Hounslow to buy the bits I needed, now being a bit of a purist he refused to sell me the bits until I took the frame to him to be checked. When he looked at the frame he said I was mad as it was a 1957 frame which probably had metal fatigue and I should get him to build me a new bike.

Steel frames do not suffer from metal fatigue unless they're repeatedly stressed beyond their elastic limit, i.e, bent. He does not know what he's talking about and just wants to sell you a new frame.


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 11:43 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 08, 2020 11:17 am
Posts: 3
Thanks for the suggestion Peachy,
First off I'd better clean off the years of grime and work out what bits of kit are underneath!


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 Post subject: Re: CB Identification
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 2:55 pm 
BoTM & rBoTM Winner
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Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:42 pm
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Location: VCC Member 5558 East Riding of Yorkshire
Aviator wrote:
I have an old Claud Butler bike that I got off a friend and restored in 1981. Now when I restored it I went to Ken Ryle's in Hounslow to buy the bits I needed, now being a bit of a purist he refused to sell me the bits until I took the frame to him to be checked. When he looked at the frame he said I was mad as it was a 1957 frame which probably had metal fatigue and I should get him to build me a new bike.
I bought new alloy wheels and crank, gears and chain and rebuilt it. Now I believe it is a 60's or 70's original and looks like a 5 speed Super Coureur from the position of the pump lugs and the center pull weinmann's
Now the bottom bracket has a four digit number 0050, is it possible that this could be a custom build number?
Any ideas appreciated.
Graham


Now this is interesting.... looks very much like one of the very first Holdsworth Claud Butlers judging by the fork crown and BB oiler in combination with a very low 4 digit number.
I would say definitely post 1956, pre 1960.

As for exactly what it is I’ve got a hunch but I’m going to wait for Doug (CB guy) to have a look first. :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 4:47 pm 
Old School Hero

Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:32 pm
Posts: 199
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
I agree with Peachy and is interesting!

As said, combination of frame features (oiler and fork crown) point to one of the first Holdsworthy Clauds after takeover, According to prediction as it presently stands would place it as a 1959 which is the introductory year for Holdsworthy Clauds and the first catalogue. (see nkilgariff.com) Although would guess, since Holdsworth had taken possession of Claud Butler name in July 1958, that they would have perhaps started production of 1959 models later in that same year as was commonly done. Hard to know with present data collection.

To my knowledge we haven't seen a number any lower than your 0050 (lowest was 850) and none with leading 0's. Although, in other serial systems used by Holdsworthy it appears at startup with low numbers they often were prefixed with one or more 0's.

There were only a few models to pick from in 1959 catalogue. In pics I think I see a glimpse of a road rear dropout and a fender eye. Not an Olympic or a Coureur of any sort as at this time they would have Nervex Legere lugs. The Cordon Bleu had Nervex Pro lugs and wrapover seat stays. Significantly, frame 0050 has Prugnat 62S lugs that were used on the Challenge model. Also the European model had same Prugnat lugs but had rear brake cable stops on top of TT rather than below as your frame. Also, for this year the European's brakes were advertised as Mafac Criterium with brazed on spigots in combination with a brazed on seat stay brake cable stop which 0050 doesn't have.

So without original paint, decals or kit hard to know for sure - either a Challenge with top of TT cable stops or a European without Criterium brakes. Frames were otherwise the same. Peachy!?

Doug


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 5:43 pm 
BoTM & rBoTM Winner
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I was going with The European, but purely based on the top tube stops.

The European had a 72 degree parallel frame, so if you can measure that (seat tube & head tube would be parallel) then I’d say without any further evidence, that pretty much sums it up


Attachments:
89AB4A90-3DDA-494C-BDBD-601D7BA28487.jpeg
89AB4A90-3DDA-494C-BDBD-601D7BA28487.jpeg [ 207.65 KiB | Viewed 157 times ]
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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 9:49 pm 
Old School Hero

Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:32 pm
Posts: 199
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
European would be my first choice. It goes without saying that things were still evolving in 1959 wrt Holdsworthy Clauds and perhaps that is what we are seeing with an early European. Or perhaps a special request that this particular European not have Mafac Criterium brakes.

However I'd be surprised if Challenge frame was anything other than 72deg as well. Doubt would be more relaxed. My 1965 Typhoon measures 72deg.

Maybe someone with a Challenge could measure seat tube and head angles?


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