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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:37 pm 
rBoTM Winner
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roadking wrote:
JSH wrote:
Carry on with the thread. Although I've nothing to add, I'm finding it a good read.

The problems seem to start when some posters claim themselves as the absolute authority on matters. It's not the first time RK has been involved in a fractious exchange and likely not the last :D


Perhaps JSH would point out the fractious exchange ?

This is an issue (sometimes) with this forum, we have an opinion from a fairly new member, who has nothing to add yet is quite happy to make personal insults.

JSH seems to think I claim to be an authority. What I did with this thread was to look through my considerable archive of magazines, books and various research materials to give some feedback on the OPs original question - it is this archive that is the authority as in all things facts speak louder than uniformed opinions.

So JSH has nothing to add...mmm, the insult doesn't count then ?

Rk.


It's not an insult, just an observation. It's not tha first thread where your manner has stopped people commentingon a topic (remember the end of last year with Craig?) Look back through this thread and you can see where it started to become fractious and then spat your dummy out.

It's your assertion of facts based on your "considerable archive of magazines, books and various research materials" that make you come across as authoritative.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:27 pm 
Retro Guru

Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:38 pm
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Location: Lovely Lincolnshire Wolds & W. Sussex on the beach.
JSH wrote:
It's not an insult, just an observation. It's not tha first thread where your manner has stopped people commentingon a topic (remember the end of last year with Craig?) Look back through this thread and you can see where it started to become fractious and then spat your dummy out.

It's your assertion of facts based on your "considerable archive of magazines, books and various research materials" that make you come across as authoritative.


It was meant as an insult, and yes my replies were and are based on a considerable archive of material; is that a problem for someone like you - do you read, have you ever encountered a library ? Surely such a resource adds value where opinions do not. I cited the publications that I referred to - which is correct - if that is then authoritative, then yes I came across as authoritative.

Better than coming across as churlish and uninformed, and a shame you've hijacked the thread.

Rk.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:12 pm 
rBoTM Winner
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I rest my case!


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:26 pm 
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I guess as OP it is up to me to re-hijack this thread... so here goes nothin'...

I was about to ask roadking whether either the 1980 Allin or the 1978 Ron Cooper in his signature qualify as 'massed-start road bikes', and if so, whether he would care to share their disposition of braze ons, etc., or any other features relevant to the timeline? ....

How about the 1980 Gios Torino in your signature, JSH?


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:01 am 
rBoTM Winner
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Hi again.
The Gios has one set of DT bottle bosses, 3x cable guides on the top of the TT, a pair of lever bosses and braze on cable guides on the top of the BB.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:58 am 
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Thanks JSH- That is some evidence for pushing back the date for lever bosses by one year, at least on the continent. I'm guessing you also have allen-key brakes and 'short' rear dropouts?

Roadking?

Anyone- How about this piccolo brakes thing? I could never quite stretch to Campag. brakes. I have three sets of '80s side pull calipers- Modolo, Shimano 600, and Weinmann 400, all measuring close to 40-50mm. Only the Shimanos are (accessibly) marked, and it says 39-49mm. I would estimate that my 1975 frame was built for a c-c brake drop of 45mm, (difficult to be precise) Does anyone remember the min/max brake drop numbers for Campag. brakes- standard and short drop? (with 700c wheels/sprints.) My (failing) memory includes figures like 'forty-two' and 'fifty-seven', so I cannot quite believe the 50-65mm and 45-60mm quoted at Velobase, plus I'm having a miserable fail at downloading a Campag. catalogue..

In an (approximate) nutshell- Does a pre-'75 frame tend to have 5mm more brake clearance than a post-'75 frame?


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:08 am 
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No takers? :shock:


http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx? ... ;AbsPos=54

Serendipitously- picture at this Velobase entry of a Faema-liveried Merckx with two sets of bottle cages! ...and anachronistic anodised rims/Super Record rear mech. I'm not qualified to judge whether that is a '69-'70 frame or a later reproduction..

The min/max drop figures for brakes at Velobase are all over the place. I think the rough 'n' ready method of measuring it demonstrated at Sheldon Brown might be partly to blame. As far as I am concerned, min/max brake drop is measured vertically, (not diagonally) from the centre of the pivot bolt to the centres of the brake shoe bolts at their highest and lowest possible positions in the slots. It helps accuracy if the stirrup arms are under cable-tension and/or in their normal 'at rest' orientation to each other.

Both Velobase and Sheldon Brown are great resources, but they are not gospel..


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:50 pm 
rBoTM Winner
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The Gios does have short ends (drilled Campag) and Allen key brakes :D


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:36 pm 
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Thanks again JSH- I wasn't expecting otherwise but just as well to check.. Your information and that of DSH upthread suggests that Gios might've been ahead of the curve with this return-to-braze-ons business..

I wonder if anyone else around here has a 1980 (or even '79?) frame with original braze-on gear bosses?

Fwiw, I took roadking's retort to you to heart, and ventured to the central library to check out their 'cycling' section. Two unsurprising observations: 1)Most pictures of competitive cycling are not optimised for the recognition of the minutiae of bike design. 2) Predictably, within the illustrated 'historically' oriented books, no shortage of pictures of Merckx in either Faema or Molteni garb. In any picture from the Faema period which allowed discrimination, all bottle cages were band-on. A result which was to be expected- I'd guess even by roadking?

Anyway, photographic evidence for the existence of double brazed-on bottle cage bosses within the 1969-70 peloton (or in all likelihood some minutes in front of it.. :) ) is duly noted as being sourceable within one of the two aforementioned French publications.

Until my question about '70s Campag. Record brakes is answered I'm going to go with my gut feeling that standard drop was 47-57mm and piccolo drop was 42-52mm, even though that means that standard drop would have been slightly too deep for my 1975 frame, which doesn't seem credible, but there you go...


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:31 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:13 pm
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torqueless wrote:
Thanks again JSH- I wasn't expecting otherwise but just as well to check.. Your information and that of DSH upthread suggests that Gios might've been ahead of the curve with this return-to-braze-ons business..

I wonder if anyone else around here has a 1980 (or even '79?) frame with original braze-on gear bosses?
..


1978 PY 10 has braze on gear bosses


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