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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:34 am 
Devout Dirtbag

Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:32 pm
Posts: 146
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
I had been wondering about a more detailed pic of fork crown and then it appears! Although hard to know how relevant fork is to ID of bike as a different number than frame albeit similar suggesting same builder. I agree looks like a Fischer track fork crown (Swiss) that was used by Italian builders as Masi and used by British builders as Raleigh and Mercian at a time when Italian style Prugnat lugs were coming to the fore. Difficult to tell from a similar looking Davis track crown.
http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/FrameParts ... index.html

As Dave says, it could be a Holdsworth shop frame as number fits with the post 1965 shop sequence of numbering. Also in the 1967 shop catalogue there was indeed the option of Nervex Pro lugs. Your frame's serial number is not placed on BB edge as most of shop examples Dave has collected during the '65 to '67 period. Interestingly the only 1967 example of similar placement of serial number across the BB as yours is the alleged first Pro built by Reg collard for Addy. Explanation could be either your frame is a Collard special or an outside contractor/trade build. However lack of a metal head badge (unless evidence holes have been filled?) does throw a wrench into things! Although one or two of Dave's examples of shop builds also apparently have no metal badge, it makes it difficult to commit to Holdsworth without a metal head badge or signature "shop" features. See Dave's Excel file.

Wonder if you've researched Mercian of which I know little about? Quick look on website as well as Mercian Flickr Registry shows a similar numbering system to shop Holdsworth ie 2 digit date and the number of build for that year. Flickr has a track frame with a Fischer fork crown and added reinforcing tangs on inside surface. https://www.flickr.com/photos/mercianre ... ateposted/
Appears around '65 to '67 2 digit year could be either at beginning or after build number and serial also placed on BB, altho unclear to me re position. Mercian certainly used lots of Nervex lugs - apparently persisting into the 90's! Also at this time they used a straight rear brake bridge as yours has. Interesting, Mercian used a transfer and not a metal head badge. Although.. the big feature perhaps making Mercian a stretch is your semi wrap over seat stays, as mid and later 60's Mercians seem to have full wrap over seat stays. Although in a 66 catalogue on Mercian history site it states specs of track model Super Vigorelli could be altered to customer requests. If you haven't already gone down the Mercian route might be worthwhile contacting them. Apparently they will research serial for a small fee, although sounds like their serial records pre 1970 are lacking. Perhaps someone with more Mercian knowledge might comment.

Sorry re rambling. Hopefully there will be an Eureka moment!

Doug


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:33 am 
Dirt Disciple

Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:35 pm
Posts: 17
Thanks Doug.
So there is the possibility of Holdsworth or Mercian.
I have contacted Mercian and they said it could be one of their frames but could not be sure as per your notes, they no longer have pre 1970 records.
I have started to clean up the frame a bit as what i thought was very poor paint is actually a lot of grime and what think discoloured laquer. Underneath it appears better but i suspect still not original. Should any holes in the headtube for a badge go all the way through and be visible inside? So if i find this it could bd Holdsworth.
It has been suggested to me that i try and slowly remove paint on headtube to see if it reveals old transfers underneath. What do you think. Thanks


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:42 pm 
Devout Dirtbag

Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:32 pm
Posts: 146
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
dttlincs,

If there are actually head badge holes, maybe filled, the holes would have penetrated fully. If you look inside head tube with good light, there should be some hint of holes or perhaps filler protruding.

Good idea to start with cleaning up frame! You never know a hint of a decal or edge outline or former shadow of one underneath may become visible. I'd start with a gentle cleaner as dish soap and water with aid of something like a (used) tooth brush. Also I've found lemon based degreaser solutions as being quite gentle. Stuff like acetone based degreasers would be potentially harmful to decals. Always a good idea to experiment in areas away from possible decals. I have never done it, but I have seen the description of using the edge of a plastic card to gently scrape away outer layer of paint when trying to uncover original paint in areas where decals may be. Something like a nylon dish washing scrub pad might be helpful used gently over possible decal areas and if insufficient, judicious use of fine sand paper. See: http://bicycles.net.au/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21604

Need to be careful with oxalic acid mix and Evaporust as per my own personal experience with these concoctions. Although they do work great for rust and not usually harmful with paint, from personal experience, they can wreak havoc with older esp. water slide decals... perhaps blamed on poor or lack of clear coat. If do eventually use and if want to save any uncovered decal remnants, I'd just leave on for a short time ie an hour or less, over rusted areas only and away from possible decal areas. If decide eventually to strip entire frame than fair game to soak entire frame for hours or days.

Strippers would be a no-no if want to uncover decals. Although when and if decide to remove all old paint yourself, from my experience, a stripper definitely would be the route to go along with perhaps fine wire brush if need something more aggressive than nylon scrub. Something like a small fine screwdriver is helpful to gently pick away at lug edges.

Perhaps you have experience stripping frames and this is all old news!!! I'd guess there are former threads and google examples/advice re uncovering decals. Maybe others will have helpful advice.

Also, I found this flickr picture of a 1961 Mercian Vincitore belonging to a local British bike enthusiast. It has a good example of semi wrap over seat stays that look very similar to yours. So was something Mercian did, albeit perhaps less often(?) around time of your build.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/markbeave ... 518832507/

Doug


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:55 pm 
rBoTM Winner
rBoTM Winner
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Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:42 pm
Posts: 1390
Location: East Yorkshire
CBguy wrote:
dttlincs,
Good idea to start with cleaning up frame! You never know a hint of a decal or edge outline or former shadow of one underneath may become visible. I'd start with a gentle cleaner as dish soap and water with aid of something like a (used) tooth brush. Also I've found lemon based degreaser solutions as being quite gentle. Stuff like acetone based degreasers would be potentially harmful to decals. Always a good idea to experiment in areas away from possible decals.



Just to back up what Doug has said, here is a photo of my 1952 Claud Butler Massed Start top tube name decal.
I was going to go straight in with stripping it, but at the last moment decided on a gentle wash first. by luck the remnants of where a decal had once been, reflected light slightly differently and showed very faintly. up until that point I had no idea what it was as the frame had several non-catalogue contradictions....


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:58 pm 
Dirt Disciple

Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:35 pm
Posts: 17
Thanks for the help everyone.
I have dropped the fork out and cannot see any evidence of holes in the head tube for rivetting on a badge.
I have measured tube diameters as best i can as follows.
Top tube = 1 1/8inch(28.8mm).
Down tube = 1 inch (25.5mm).
Seat tube = 1 1/8 inch (28.8mm)
Head tube = 1 1/4 inch (31.9mm)
Seat post size = 1 5/64 inch(27.2mm)
Not sure if these help at all with ID.
Will post a couple more pics shortly.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:13 pm 
Dirt Disciple

Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:35 pm
Posts: 17
A few more photos if they help with ID not sure


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:31 pm 
Dirt Disciple

Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:35 pm
Posts: 17
One last thing!
Frame only weight is 2100g approx for a 23 inch top tube/24 inch seat tube. Not sure if that help to firm if double butted or not.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:54 pm 
Newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:27 pm
Posts: 6
Location: Cambridge
One more data point for you: I've just purchased a Claud Butler 531 frame in gold on eBay. The frame number is 062287. Going by the catalogues on http://nkilgariff.com/ClaudButler.htm I think it's a 1981/2 Cassino frameset, based on the decals (Claud Butler up the seat post) as well as the features on the frame (531 frame and forks, no rack eyelets, fork boss for lamp bracket, no bosses for cages, colour) — the catalogues don't include framesets in 1982, but it does mention "touring models only", so presumably they were still available, but in a different catalogue not listed.

I think the frame number therefore would fit with the data in your excellent charts, Mr Scrimshaw :wink:

Clearly it's not a classic, being a Holdsworth-built CB, and a lower-end frameset at that. It'll become a fixed-wheel steeler for winter riding, while I build up a vintage (1977) 531 Peugeot PRN10 (again, not a classic) as a fixed-wheel bike for Paris-Brest-Paris next year.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:14 pm 
Retro Guru
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Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:52 am
Posts: 303
Location: Colchester, Essex
Thanks for the frame number, I have added that. I have to say I would see this as a couple of years latter as it has one of the last numbers, I would say 1984. I only see the Cassino listed as a frame earlier in the 80's. I add some photos of the frame and see if other more knowlegable on CB's can ID it. I would also like to add a photo to the database.

I have just finished a Holdsworth fix wheel bike and had a couple of rides out on it, still trying to adjust to the fixed wheel way of cycling, fun though!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:27 pm 
Newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:27 pm
Posts: 6
Location: Cambridge
dwscrimshaw wrote:
Thanks for the frame number, I have added that. I have to say I would see this as a couple of years latter as it has one of the last numbers, I would say 1984. I only see the Cassino listed as a frame earlier in the 80's. I add some photos of the frame and see if other more knowlegable on CB's can ID it. I would also like to add a photo to the database.

I have just finished a Holdsworth fix wheel bike and had a couple of rides out on it, still trying to adjust to the fixed wheel way of cycling, fun though!


I found riding fixed released a whole new passion for riding. It helps if you're in a flatter part of the country, like Cambridgeshire — or Essex ;) I'm hoping that riding fixed-steel will be a new experience and a new buzz — my current fixie is a modern Langster, which is not that characterful ...

Interesting thoughts on the date, thanks. It's possibly later, I'm probably misreading your charts. Anyway, a couple of pics from the eBay auction (I haven't received it yet):

Image

Image


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