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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:27 pm 
Old School Hero

Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:32 pm
Posts: 166
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Dave,

Site looks great. Holdsworth enthusiasts like myself are very appreciative of all your efforts.

Many, many thanks.

Doug


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:32 pm 
Retro Guru

Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:39 am
Posts: 478
Location: Twickenham
Thanks a lot!

Will try to make a copy of the site


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:56 am 
Newbie
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Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:46 am
Posts: 9
Just found this excellent resource when trying to date a Claud Butler that's recently come in to my possession.

The only number I can see underneath the BB is 2825 which I think puts it at 1972 according to this. I'm still none the wiser as to the model however. It's got Weinmann brakes and Campagnolo Velox gears. Also has the stylised Olympic rings on the front. "Italia" stickers on the top tube with "Italia Sprint" on the saddle.

Can anyone help a novice out? Cheers.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:07 pm 
Retro Guru
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Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:52 am
Posts: 327
Location: Colchester, Essex
I think that could be an interesting number for a CB. I assume you are looking at the early 70's 4D group of numbers when dating this frame? all I would say is this is a bit of an odd group in that it is not documented anywhere else other than here and we are using it to include frames built outside of the factory and shop systems that ran at the same time. We think it was often used for contract builds by outside frame builders and/or for other related companies like Harding, DBS etc. see the first page of the Excel file. I am not sure CB frames would have been included here hence the interest/caution.

That said I am your frame can be identified and dated. It would be useful to see some photos, particularly of the BB numbering, the lug work and the rear brake bridge. Any other distinguishing features or documentation/history would be good too.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:11 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:46 am
Posts: 9
dwscrimshaw wrote:
I think that could be an interesting number for a CB. I assume you are looking at the early 70's 4D group of numbers when dating this frame? all I would say is this is a bit of an odd group in that it is not documented anywhere else other than here and we are using it to include frames built outside of the factory and shop systems that ran at the same time. We think it was often used for contract builds by outside frame builders and/or for other related companies like Harding, DBS etc. see the first page of the Excel file. I am not sure CB frames would have been included here hence the interest/caution.

That said I am your frame can be identified and dated. It would be useful to see some photos, particularly of the BB numbering, the lug work and the rear brake bridge. Any other distinguishing features or documentation/history would be good too.


Here are some pictures. http://imgur.com/a/PGJY0

It's Reynolds 531 tubing and forks. The bike was originally my fathers - he thinks it's a late 70s piece at a guess.

As you can see it's in a bit of a state. On second glance the serial could read 32825 not just 2825. It looks like there my be a 3 where the rust have completely stripped the paint under the BB. I can't be sure. As you can see it has a Simpsons of NW5 sticker on it with the number 485-1706.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:34 pm 
Old School Hero

Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:32 pm
Posts: 166
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Diver,

We've often been led down the proverbial "garden path" by jumping to wrong conclusions on a frame date by using an unconfirmed serial number. I'd suggest, to be certain, you clean up the area to the left of 2825.

Having said that and as Dave had said pics are indeed helpful.

It appears to me that what you have is a Claud Butler Italia. According to nkilgariff.com he only lists in a 1981 catalogue and so perhaps only produced the one year? Thus yours is likely 1981 and looks to be in original silver grey paint. It was basically a clone of Holdsworth Elan with distinctive Prugnat 64D lugs and came as a complete bike or frame only. If after sticking my neck out here, I am bang on, than for the serial number to fit it should read 0(3?)2825 (Dave's prediction places @ c.1981) and once cleaned up wouldn't be surprised that is what you find. (Holdsworth models and Claud models shared the same 6 digit system between '76 and '85).

Besides '81 catalog page with Italia it is interesting to look at Kilgariff's page on Holdsworth Elan model for comparison: http://www.nkilgariff.com/HoldsModelPages/Elan.htm

Doug


Attachments:
p42_43.jpg
p42_43.jpg [ 212.35 KiB | Viewed 452 times ]


Last edited by CBguy on Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:50 pm 
Newbie
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Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:46 am
Posts: 9
CBguy wrote:
Diver,

We've often been led down the proverbial "garden path" by jumping to wrong conclusions on a frame date by using an unconfirmed serial number. I'd suggest, to be certain, you clean up the area to the left of 2825.

Having said that and as Dave had said pics are indeed helpful.

It appears to me that what you have is a Claud Butler Italia. According to nkilgariff.com he only lists in a 1981 catalogue and so perhaps only produced the one year? Thus yours is likely 1981 and looks to be in original silver grey paint. It was basically a clone of Holdsworth Elan with distinctive Prugnat 64D lugs and came as a complete bike or frame only. If after sticking my neck out here, I am bang on, than for the serial number to fit it should read 032825 (Dave's prediction places @ c.1981) and once cleaned up wouldn't be surprised that is what you find. (Holdsworth models and Claud models shared the same 6 digit system between '76 and '85).

Besides '81 catalog page with Italia it is interesting to look at Kilgariff's page on Holdsworth Elan model for comparison: http://www.nkilgariff.com/HoldsModelPages/Elan.htm

Doug


Thank you very much Doug,

That seems to all add up. Upon further inspection of the serial it does appear there was a 03 where the rust now is. I'll try and get that rust cleaned up this weekend to confirm. I'm not sure if an '81 is worth anything but in any case I'd like to restore this one for myself, probably. I still haven't decided whether to (pay somebody to) completely strip and respray or to try and carefully restore. The decals are in good nick so I hope to be able to restore it.

All that being said, I'm a complete novice and I guess it depends on whether the surface rust will clean up.

Cheers,
D


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:54 pm 
Dirt Disciple
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:33 pm
Posts: 19
Location: El Cerrito, California
Thank you for the excellent reference materials. I've been able to peg all four of my Holdsworths.

43831 - a Mistral I purchased new from Shaw's Lightweight Cycles in San Jose, California in 1978. Deeply discounted because he'd had it hanging in his shop two years.

69387 - A cyclocross racing bike. I've never seen another Holdsworth CX frame, though Nick Kilgariff's catalogues suggested you could get a Competizione CX bike in the early 1970s. I can perhaps assume this was a custom order. I purchased this in the UK on eBay.

69364 - A very nondescript racing frame that was a hideous maroon color I had resprayed in Team Orange when I built it up recently as an upright urban bike with Sturmey-Archer hubs. I purchased this in the US on eBay.

60171 - A Gemini Tandem. Purchased in the US on eBay as well.

Thanks for the downloads. I am most grateful.

Eric Luttrell


Last edited by Eric_Luttrell on Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:59 pm 
Retro Guru
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Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:52 am
Posts: 327
Location: Colchester, Essex
Diver wrote:
CBguy wrote:
Diver,

We've often been led down the proverbial "garden path" by jumping to wrong conclusions on a frame date by using an unconfirmed serial number. I'd suggest, to be certain, you clean up the area to the left of 2825.

Having said that and as Dave had said pics are indeed helpful.

It appears to me that what you have is a Claud Butler Italia. According to nkilgariff.com he only lists in a 1981 catalogue and so perhaps only produced the one year? Thus yours is likely 1981 and looks to be in original silver grey paint. It was basically a clone of Holdsworth Elan with distinctive Prugnat 64D lugs and came as a complete bike or frame only. If after sticking my neck out here, I am bang on, than for the serial number to fit it should read 032825 (Dave's prediction places @ c.1981) and once cleaned up wouldn't be surprised that is what you find. (Holdsworth models and Claud models shared the same 6 digit system between '76 and '85).

Besides '81 catalog page with Italia it is interesting to look at Kilgariff's page on Holdsworth Elan model for comparison: http://www.nkilgariff.com/HoldsModelPages/Elan.htm

Doug


Thank you very much Doug,

That seems to all add up. Upon further inspection of the serial it does appear there was a 03 where the rust now is. I'll try and get that rust cleaned up this weekend to confirm. I'm not sure if an '81 is worth anything but in any case I'd like to restore this one for myself, probably. I still haven't decided whether to (pay somebody to) completely strip and respray or to try and carefully restore. The decals are in good nick so I hope to be able to restore it.

All that being said, I'm a complete novice and I guess it depends on whether the surface rust will clean up.

Cheers,
D


Bit late to this one, but I think I can see a zero too thus making it part of the 6D numbers and indeed would look like a 1981 frame. Also that smallish made by Holdsworth decal was around in the early 80's. Looks like you have an answer!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:29 pm 
Retro Guru
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:52 am
Posts: 327
Location: Colchester, Essex
Eric_Luttrell wrote:
Thank you for the excellent reference materials. I've been able to peg all four of my Holdsworths.

43831 - a Mistral I purchased new from Shaw's Lightweight Cycles in San Jose, California in 1978. Deeply discounted because he'd had it hanging in his shop two years.

69337 - A cyclocross racing bike. I've never seen another Holdsworth CX frame, though Nick Kilgariff's catalogues suggested you could get a Competizione CX bike in the early 1970s. I can perhaps assume this was a custom order. I purchased this in the UK on eBay.

69364 - A very nondescript racing frame that was a hideous maroon color I had resprayed in Team Orange when I built it up recently as an upright urban bike with Sturmey-Archer hubs. I purchased this in the US on eBay.

60171 - A Gemini Tandem. Purchased in the US on eBay as well.

Thanks for the downloads. I am most grateful.

Eric Luttrell


Interesting, thanks for sharing the number, i'll added them to the file. The number for the Mistral would fit at the end of the 5D number system around 1976 and be consistent with a sale in 1978 as you say.

The two shop frames starting with 69 are interesting in that they are high numbers which would lead us to believe they come from the early 70's. Our suggestions are 71 & 72 respectively and again would be consistent with your comments on the CX frame.

I am a bit puzzled by the tandem frame, not seen any numbers for Holdsworth Tandems, could be an oversight on my part. Can you give me more information on the number and frame generally? Its too high for the 5D system and the shop system didn't start until mid 60's. Is it possible that it has a leading zero making part of the 6D numbers? Another option is that it is a CB number and there seems to be more tandems around, also their 5D numbers went higher than the Holdsworhs.

Thanks again


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