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 Post subject: Holdsworth Frame Numbers
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:25 pm 
Old School Hero
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Location: Colchester, Essex
Started new thread on this subject in the hope of identifying more numbers. With a lot of help from Doug (CBguy) on frame identification I have updated the numbering charts seen on the original thread.

A summary of the various numbering systems used by Holdsworth is shown below with more details on Goggle Cloud. This is based on a growing number of frames found on line and information from other websites on the subject. The following are the systems that these numbers seem to fall into.

Pre-War.
Post war 5 Digit numbers and the continuation of this from 1965.
Early 60's 4 Digit numbers (1962-1964).
Shop numbers from 1965 with 1st 2 digits for the year.
Early 70's 4 Digit series (with leading zeros) including branded frames.
6 Digit System from 1976.

The predictions shown are based on the usage of Factory issued numbers and steady production of 1500 frames per year up to 1961 and 1200 frames per year from 1965 when the shop had its own system. 6 Digit numbers have an increasing yearly production up to 1985. The Framework graphs show how this fits around known fixed points in production and frames with good dates or documents to back up their dates.

There are issues with this mainly around shop frames and others that seem to have taken longer to progress through the factory. There are also a few that show up too early, for which I have no real explanation. I have show these on the graphs to indicate the level of accuracy that can be expected with this approach.

All other frames with less clear dating have then been added in where they would occur along with the original description in the Excel sheet. I would be interested in any frame numbers, particularly those with good dates. Hope this is of interest.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... TNKZkN4TmM

Attachment:
Holdsworth Frame Numbers.JPG
Holdsworth Frame Numbers.JPG [ 107.34 KiB | Viewed 3197 times ]

Attachment:
Holdsworth Frame Numbering.JPG
Holdsworth Frame Numbering.JPG [ 63.8 KiB | Viewed 3197 times ]


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:08 am 
Dirt Disciple

Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:32 pm
Posts: 97
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Great work Dave!

Impressive documentation and a great resource for all for narrowing the year and identifying model with help of catalogs. When I last counted a few days ago there were approx. 200 serial numbers listed on your excel spread sheet. Things are certainly becoming clearer as numbers are added. THE MORE NUMBERS THE BETTER!

I wasn't aware of early 70's 4 digit special numbers until recently after discussing a frame with Hilary Stone that he has for sale. (Often these frames appear to be factory models customized for smaller shop re-branding as example Harding)

Doug


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:45 am 
Old School Hero
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Location: Colchester, Essex
Yes, thanks for your help on this.

I think it must be used along side frame ID's and model years. If you get a match on all three bits of Info than confidence is high.

I have also tweaked the number/year break points for the 5D's now that pre war # 6015 has turned up. Also there was a pre-war number mixed in with 1946 numbers.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:57 pm 
Devout Dirtbag
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Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:41 pm
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Location: Oslo Norway
CBguy wrote:
Great work Dave!

I wasn't aware of early 70's 4 digit special numbers until recently after discussing a frame with Hilary Stone that he has for sale. (Often these frames appear to be factory models customized for smaller shop re-branding as example Harding)

Doug


I have a Holdsworth (proffesional) framed DBS (Norwegian bicycle manufacturer), with four digit frame number 4905, which according to the above could be a 1974 made frame, and probably sold for the 1975 season here in Norway.
This year fits well with the decor/decals of the bike and the components mounted. Some pictures of the bike can be found here viewtopic.php?f=12&t=351556


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:27 pm 
Dirt Disciple

Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:18 pm
Posts: 95
Location: Warwick
Hallo Dave,

It seems that my HW Pro is moving back in time. You may recall that it is a 338xx number which now appears to be 1968 year on the revised listing (from 1969).

This is not a problem for myself, and I really appreciate the work which you have put into this problem and how useful it is, but there are comments on other sites which state that chromed forks and tail were only applied in 1970 and after. As mine has been restored and repainted I could wonder whether it authentic for that year.

But in actual fact I don't really care about how it looks, it is a great ride and I am proud to be the custodian of it.

Thanks again,

David.

1969 Holdsworth Team Professional - Record.
1997 Colnago Oval Titanio Art Deco - Chorus.
1999 Raleigh Team Titanium Oval - DuraAce.
2013 Condor Fratello - Ultegra.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:55 pm 
Old School Hero
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Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:52 am
Posts: 232
Location: Colchester, Essex
PerB wrote:
CBguy wrote:
Great work Dave!

I wasn't aware of early 70's 4 digit special numbers until recently after discussing a frame with Hilary Stone that he has for sale. (Often these frames appear to be factory models customized for smaller shop re-branding as example Harding)

Doug


I have a Holdsworth (proffesional) framed DBS (Norwegian bicycle manufacturer), with four digit frame number 4905, which according to the above could be a 1974 made frame, and probably sold for the 1975 season here in Norway.
This year fits well with the decor/decals of the bike and the components mounted. Some pictures of the bike can be found here viewtopic.php?f=12&t=351556


Thanks, I did have this down, but as 4903, I have corrected it now. Thanks for pointing that out.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:26 pm 
Old School Hero
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Location: Colchester, Essex
[quote="CommanderChuff"]Hallo Dave,

It seems that my HW Pro is moving back in time. You may recall that it is a 338xx number which now appears to be 1968 year on the revised listing (from 1969).

This is not a problem for myself, and I really appreciate the work which you have put into this problem and how useful it is, but there are comments on other sites which state that chromed forks and tail were only applied in 1970 and after. As mine has been restored and repainted I could wonder whether it authentic for that year.

But in actual fact I don't really care about how it looks, it is a great ride and I am proud to be the custodian of it.

Thanks again,

David.

1969 Holdsworth Team Professional - Record.
1997 Colnago Oval Titanio Art Deco - Chorus.
1999 Raleigh Team Titanium Oval - DuraAce.
2013 Condor Fratello - Ultegra.[/quote

Thanks, Yes I have looked back over the old thread I don't think I actually specified a year as the accuracy would be a year or two either way. The archive copies I have have this down as 1970 then 1968 as the charts were developed. It is actually shown as such in a graph in one of the replies, I did't pick up on the fact that you were seeing this as 69 at the time.

Its interesting about the forks, there are a number of pros in the database around that time I will have a look at them latter see if any conclusions can be drawn.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:43 pm 
Dirt Disciple

Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:32 pm
Posts: 97
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
David and Dave,

As you no doubt have read, Kilgariff states in his website that the Holdsworthy factory started Pro production not before 1970. He has a copy of earliest catalogue page in which the date is handwritten as June 1970. Certainly the factory pro is described as having chrome forks and rear stays.

The factory no longer wanted the HC team to be be riding shop pros. Reg Collard had made the first team orange pro in 1967 and as I understand it some riders continued to use their Shop Pros into early 70's. I am surmising there was increasing tension between the shop and factory during the early 70's culminating in 1975 when Roy Thame was told by the factory to cease labelling shop frames as Holdsworth's.

Assuming frame(338xx) has the features of a factory Pro, it is difficult to reconcile as a '68 with what we know of the Factory Pro history only commencing in 1970, despite a serial number and graph that points to c.1968.

Key word I guess is circa.

Doug

PS: Couple pics of your frame on earlier number thread looks like a very nice Pro . TT cable guides were perhaps added later?


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:20 am 
Old School Hero
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Location: Colchester, Essex
Thanks Doug, interesting just goes to show what was said earlier, any predictions about numbers needs to be put alongside model recognition points. I am thinking the numbers could do with a tweek to accommodate fixed points better, not sure it will radically change the outcome, but highlighting accuracy/inaccuracy might be good.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:01 pm 
Old School Hero
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Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:52 am
Posts: 232
Location: Colchester, Essex
Following the above discussion I have pulled out all the Professional frames from this period. As you rightly point out we should not see factory frames before 1970. Also I notice several are dated by nkillgariff including the #'s I highlighted as difficult to reconcile on current graphs, same trend appears.

Using these dates and a couple of other good ones a converging trend appears. With doubts around the validity of the remaining dates it is not unreasonable to fit these around this second trend line.

At the risk of reading too much into this, is it possible for a delay in production of these frames that gradually reduces? It would be reasonable to plot the pro's on a separate trend during this time.

Any thoughts?

Attachment:
Early 70's Professional Frames.JPG
Early 70's Professional Frames.JPG [ 99.41 KiB | Viewed 3060 times ]


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