Claud Butler id - hopefully!

Hello all,

This is my first post outside of the introductions but I thought it would be worth jumping straight in with my query. Please bear with me!

Tomorrow I'm finally retrieving a bike I purchased on eBay that was advertised as a late 40s/early 50s Claud Butler, though the poster himself clarified that he's not entirely sure. It belonged to his father and he had spent decent time online researching its origins prior to the sale, as I have as well. I've had a very thorough scour of Norman Kilgariff's site (among others), including all of the catalogues, and the closest match I have been able to settle on is the 1949 Continental Club. I'm basing that mainly on the lugs and the rear dropouts but I'll be honest - it's difficult to make either heads or tails from the drawings, especially when the catalogues were merely a guide, even at the time! It doesn't help that I have ZERO experience with road bikes too, let alone vintage ones.

The bike has a serial number of 57748 which, again, I've been unable to correlate with any of the information online, including in this forum in the various CB serial number discussions.

Might anybody have a clue as to the bike's provenance? I've attached a series of pictures which I'm hoping might at least point someone in the right direction.

I know the paint job and a lot of the components aren't period-correct and at some stage I'd like to get it back to something resembling its original state but with tight funds at the moment, I'll have to leave it as is.

In any case, I'm in love with the bike - I just want to know more about it!

Many thanks in advance for any leads!

Tom

Re:

Proper shot of the serial number this time!

This is made like a pre WW2 frame with cast lugs, so likely to be before 1950. The cast lugs look a bit unfinished for a Claud Butler, materials to build frames and workshop space was still difficult, so many variations exist.

Is the frame number possibly 1948, 577? Have the front forks got a number on the column (now steerer)

Many frame builders used the same parts, have you looked at Carlton, but the frame number is in a very unusual place, and punched remarkably straight.

Keith

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Hi, looks the same as my 1942 CB Continental Club https://www.flickr.com/photos/tk_photos ... otostream/ , the serial number would indicate July 1945 ( '5 year 7 month' ), nice bike to ride, my one is setup as a fixed, enjoy. Terry

Thanks very much to you both. Some good info there and Terry, you're right, the bike looks pretty much the same! Glad to finally see a picture of a bike resembling mine. I guess the badge could well have been added later..?

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Hi, I think it has had a repaint so it's possible, I think that CB badge was created for the London Games after the war, Claud didn't miss a marketing opportunity, supplying a lot of the bikes for the games. Terry

Hello again,

I'm giving this a bump because I wondered whether there might be any fresh opinions about the provenance of my bike..? I haven't had any further luck identifying it but, based on Terry's own 1942 Continental Club and his reading of my serial number, I was happy (ecstatic even) to go with July 1945.

However, today I saw a 1981 Claud Butler on eBay that looked suspiciously like mine so I'm hoping for reassurance that mine is not of a similar age...

Thanks for any further thoughts!

Tom

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You can be assured that your bike is no later than 1950, probaly early post war, possibly pre war, without checking frame number.

I can not be sure it is a Claud Butler, but the age is obvious.

Keith

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Hi, a few years have passed Tom, I don't have that Claud any more, but the pictures are still up. I think mid/late 40's is exactly right, my doubts with another look is the position of the serial number. If you could scrape the paint off one of your dropouts, there could be a 'CB' stamped somewhere on it, that would nail it. The dropouts look CB but I think a few of builders resorted to making there own after the war. Terry

Those continental drop outs look very much like Claud’s version introduced a few years before the war, the pre 1950 BB number stamps are a bit confusing, but general rule of thumb would be 1945 July, production number 748, that would be a suspiciously low number of production by July in later years, but perhaps at the end of the war maybe that low number might reflect the times?
The badge and kit are obviously all later additions, so are no use for dating purposes. You could remove the front shifter clamp to see if there is still a trace of a brazed lever boss that may have been ground off prior to the re-paint. Or it may have been a Model No 19 “Continental Club” Mk111 timetrial/grass version with double rear cog hub (flip/flop) single speed but no shifter that would also account for no cable guide, roller or eyes on or near the BB, and no brazed stop/guide on the chain stay. (obviously the bolt on versions that are there now are from a much later time period.

Some more photos would be helpful, specifically the rest of the bottom bracket, the rear bridge, front and ¾ view and rear view of the head tube lugs. Oh and a close up of the nearside drop out with some light directed from the side not from the front or behind so we can take a better look for the “CB” stamp.