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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:19 pm 
Gold Trader
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Don't forget that the number of clicks is always one less than the number of speeds/positions!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:45 pm 
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A couple of links for you below; in short they are a huge PITA to set-up and my personal opinion is that indexed DTS over-complicates a beautifully simple component and aren't even necessary.

Do like even the Campag sponsored pros did and fit Simplex Super LJ!

Cycleops
Tears For Gears


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:05 pm 
rBoTM Winner
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agentorange wrote:
The rear derailleur for the earlier 7-speed Chorus group was identical to the one supplied with the then new 8-speed group so I doubt it's the rear mech.


Are you sure about that agentorange? Looking at the 1987 Chorus and the 1992 catalog Chorus RS they don't appear to be the same.

The 6/7 speed model has a capacity of 31 in position A and 33 in position B and biggest sprockets of 27 and 32 respectively

The 8 speed model has a stated capacity of 26 and a maximum sprocket size of 26 the same as the record mech :?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:28 pm 
rBoTM Winner
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gavr wrote:
agentorange wrote:
The rear derailleur for the earlier 7-speed Chorus group was identical to the one supplied with the then new 8-speed group so I doubt it's the rear mech.


Are you sure about that agentorange? Looking at the 1987 Chorus and the 1992 catalog Chorus RS they don't appear to be the same.

The 6/7 speed model has a capacity of 31 in position A and 33 in position B and biggest sprockets of 27 and 32 respectively

The 8 speed model has a stated capacity of 26 and a maximum sprocket size of 26 the same as the record mech :?


Yes, the 92 version was very different. I thought we were discussing the A-B version which came with both the 7-speed freewheel group and the later 8-speedcassette group.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:55 pm 
rBoTM Winner
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agentorange wrote:
Yes, the 92 version was very different. I thought we were discussing the A-B version which came with both the 7-speed freewheel group and the later 8-speedcassette group.


Yes you're quite right with the 8 speed cassettes. It was changed the following year, but does FINNEY1973 not have the shifters from the new 1992 8 speed group rather than those provided with the early cassette group?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:05 pm 
rBoTM Winner
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gavr wrote:
agentorange wrote:
Yes, the 92 version was very different. I thought we were discussing the A-B version which came with both the 7-speed freewheel group and the later 8-speedcassette group.


Yes you're quite right with the 8 speed cassettes. It was changed the following year, but does FINNEY1973 not have the shifters from the new 1992 8 speed group rather than those provided with the early cassette group?


Well, this is the strange thing, these shifters were the last of the Syncro units and remained available until 1994 for the benefit of late adopters to Ergo and if I'm not very much mistaken were only available in 8sp, which is what makes this such a quandary.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:18 pm 
rBoTM Winner
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agentorange wrote:
Well, this is the strange thing, these shifters were the last of the Syncro units and remained available until 1994 for the benefit of late adopters to Ergo and if I'm not very much mistaken were only available in 8sp, which is what makes this such a quandary.


As I understand things (and I may be wrong) the first 8 speed Syncro shifters differed slightly from 6/7 Syncro II but were essentially based on the same design. The 1992 version differs again from the 1st gen - they dropped the ability to switch between friction and indexing for one, and it would seem obvious that they were designed/tested with the new rear mechs that were introduced at the same time (The Chorus RS is very different from the late 80s version as we've already established). The first 8 speed shifters didn't work at all well with some of the older mechs like FINNEY's and, from what he says, neither did the new version! There was a still later version of the Syncro shifters in the mid 90s that finally solved these problems and this remains in the design of the modern bar end shifters. By mixing and matching the innards of the bar ends with the last version of the Syncro it's possible apparently to get at least ten speed down tube shifters!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:51 pm 
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Gentlemen, I don't enjoy sharing my misery with you all on this one but i'm glad it's got you good folk equally perplexed :)

Much to digest from your comments - many thanks for those - so i'll try and narrow things down a bit.

12-25 Cassette (Campagnolo CS-8AL), almost new - discounted as an issue. Chain, 8-speed, brand new, installed so that when on the big ring front and small ring rear the jockey wheels are vertical - discounted as an issue. My lack of patience - not new and could be an issue :)

So that leaves RM, DT levers and cable as the culprits. Are they all in on this together or is it just one of them?

Cable is brand new - Jagwire Road Pro - use this cable set on all my bikes, never had an issue so may not be an issue but not discounting it. A more traditional cable may be better? It is held via the traditional groove on the RM - does this influence it's operation?

RM I bought from Holland a few years back, in lovely condition, it's clean, no dirt, I'd be amazed if it's done a 1000 miles looking at the jockey wheels. However, I must agree with the comments that this may be 7 speed maximum as I can't see anything official that says it can index to 8 cogs despite the ability the 'travel' across the width of the cassette. Prime suspect #1.

DT levers - 7 clicks and a 'ghost'. I can't see anywhere that shows this lever set as 7-speed or 8-speed variants - the ferule that holds the cable end only appears on the Record levers - I had taken this to mean these are 8-speed only but there seems to be some conjecture on this? (Campagnolo SL-01RE CG, Record). Prime Suspect #2.

So - to the symptoms explained a bit better:
53T front ring - 8th (smallest rear) - sweet like chocolate as is 7th, 5th, 4th, 3rd.
53T front ring - 6th - it 'clatters' - no interference with the jockey cage so this isn't a metal on metal problem.
53T front ring - 2nd - doesn't like it all (see comments below for small front ring)
53T front ring - 1st - can't comment - it's never been there but as I wouldn't ride with a chain cross like that I'm not concerned other than I've never had a RM that won't go across the rear gears before.

39T front ring - 8th - can't comment - it's never been there.
39T front ring - 7th - It's not very happy and clatters.
39T front ring - 6th, 5th, 4th, 2nd, 1st - sweet like chocolate.
39T front ring - 3rd - prefers it to 7th but again it's not too happy.

What I've summised is that the RM isn't 8-speed compatible in index mode - the DT levers are index only - I have others but none that are 8 speed :facepalm: I do have the get-out clause of a pair of friction only (C-Record I think) but a primary driver on this build was for it to be early 90's set-up so index shifting was high on the wish list.

Also, which is setting A and B - i've got the allen fixings on the RM just tight enough to allow the RM body to flex across the width of the cassette and I'm using 1 limiting screw only - It's limiting to stop it going beyond the 12T cassette cog - the other end is controlled by the allen bolts so it doesn't seem to need the use of the other limiting screw? Not sure if this is correct but It doesn't seem quite right to me to be doing it this way?

Any finally to the DT internals - see attached - to my eyes it doesn't match any of the colour coded inserts so 8-speed??

So then gents, far too many of my words and I haven't fixed it so any thoughts on the above?


Attachments:
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:12 pm 
rBoTM Winner
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FINNEY1973 wrote:

Any finally to the DT internals - see attached - to my eyes it doesn't match any of the colour coded inserts so 8-speed??


Most certainly 8 speed.

I think you need a newer rear mech but even they can be tricky


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:27 pm 
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gavr wrote:
FINNEY1973 wrote:

Any finally to the DT internals - see attached - to my eyes it doesn't match any of the colour coded inserts so 8-speed??


Most certainly 8 speed.

I think you need a newer rear mech but even they can be tricky


Concur with that statement - a shame as I love the style of the 1st gen Chorus or at least the style of the jockey cage.

Velobase confuses me when it comes to 1990 - 1994ish 8 speed mechs - ties in with the Index technology but it describes them as friction derailleurs? Surely if they are part of the 'group' then the Record & Chorus mechs must be index?

Going to give this one more go to try and get it to at least operate, and if it doesn't work then it's off to the bay...


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