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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:17 pm 
Dirt Disciple

Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:45 pm
Posts: 13
My first post on this amazing site, and a request for some help.

I purchased this frame in the late 1970s, it was second hand, had already been re-sprayed and had no badges. Consequently I've never known anything about it. It's been in the garage and has been used a general hack for the past 30-odd years, and it's now time I found out more about it, and maybe restore it to its former glory.

It has wrap around seat stays, and chromed forks, seat and chain stays. The distance between the centre of the bottom bracket and the top of the seat post is about 22.5 inches, the angle between the seat post and the top tube is about 72 degrees and the wheelbase is about 41 inches. According to our bathroom scales the frame weighs just over 7 pounds and the forks about 2 pounds.

It has matching frames numbers on the bottom bracket and on the fork tube. The number is 33156. There's also another rather feint number, either 126 or 426, stamped on the bottom bracket.

I've attached a few photographs.

I've trawled the internet and it seems that it might be a Holdsworth Mistral, but I'm not sure. Would appreciate any help to try and confirm the marque and vintage of the frame.

Many thanks.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:59 pm 
rBoTM Winner
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Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:48 pm
Posts: 455
Location: N. Herts
Hi, first the positives ( lots of them ), the wrapover stay looks Holdsworth all day long also be aware there was a Claud Butler version, the serial number, if a Holdsworth points to late sixties, so dead on for a Mistral or Super Mistral ( chrome ends ! ), the fork crown is late sixties, but I've just got one tiny question mark and that's the cut off pump brazon, I've not seen these on the examples I've seen, but anything goes if you are buying and paying for extras, the Holdsworth shop didn't like to many brazon's but you pays your money. It does look like it could be a Mistral ( Super ? ). Terry


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:52 am 
Retro Guru

Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:38 pm
Posts: 1468
Location: The Lovely Lincolnshire Wolds and by the sea in Sussex
This frame is a little puzzling,

it is not a Holdsworth Super Mistral though: - the fork crown is not correct for a Super Mistral, that has a fully sloping crown.

The seatstay wrapover looks a little"clunky"(certainly not as nice as my Mistral), Holdsworth used an elegant design, tapered where each stay joins, and the frame doesn't have the headbadge holes - at least they're not visible.

The Dulux paintjob doesn't help! Diameter of the seat tube would give us a clue, it should be stamped on the seatpost.

The"pip"on the seat lug looks like a"Zerk"fitting (grease nipple) but why? I cannot see how you'd get a pump on there, it would interfere with the top tube brake fittings and cable!!!

You say you've had the frame since the late 1970s - I am certain it wasn't very old when you bought it.

Is it a Holdsworth at all?

Roadking.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:17 am 
rBoTM Winner
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Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:48 pm
Posts: 455
Location: N. Herts
Hi, there were two different size stays available at Holdsworth in the late sixties, I also have the narrower one on my mistral, but I have seen Clauds, and other Holdsworths ( i.e. early professional ) with this larger size. The fork, I believe, is correct for a late sixties mistral ( see below ). As far as the pip is concerned, god knows, just a guess at what it could be. Terry


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:53 pm 
Dirt Disciple

Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:45 pm
Posts: 13
Thanks for the comments. I think I must have been about 14/15 years old when I bought the secondhand frame, so that would make it about 1978.

Regarding the 'pips' on the seat tube, I've assumed that they are cut off pump pegs, as there's also one just above the bottom bracket. I'll remove some paint and investigate. Similarly I'll remove some paint from the head badge area and see if there are signs of any old hole. Will also check the seat post size.

A few things I forgot to mention. The rear dropouts have threaded holes for adjuster screws. Also there's the remains of some sort of small braze-on, about where the gear shifter would be on the sloping tube, on the left (non drive) side only. It's just visible on the attached photo. Also various bits of Holdsworth sales literature say that the Mistral is fitted with Campag dropouts - I can't find any Campag markings on mine, is this normal?

Will remove some more paint and post again.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:43 pm 
Retro Guru

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:07 pm
Posts: 1321
Location: Cotswolds
This does look like a Holdsworthy Company (wholesale suppliers to the trade), and late 1960's looks right. Also supplied with own transfers. Do not confuse with WF Holdsworth, although some loose connections, who were a retail shop, and mostly after the Holdsworthy Co. bought the name, were not allowed to use "Holdsworth" on frames.
Claud Butler and Freddy Grubb were the other main Holdsworthy names at this time.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:53 pm 
Dirt Disciple

Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:45 pm
Posts: 13
It's taken a while, but I've now stripped the 'dulux paint job' from the frame, and can confirm a few things.

I bought the frame second hand in the late 1970s, when it had already been repainted. It has matching frame numbers, 33156, on the bottom bracket and forks. It also has the number 126 stamped on both.

The frame geometry matches that of a Holdsworth Mistral, it has wrap over seat stays, does have Campagnolo drop outs and the ends of the forks and rear stays are chromed. It has had a badge on the head tube, but the fixing holes have been infilled with braze. The holes are about 56-57mm apart (vertically).

It has had pump pegs on the seat tube and has the remains of brazed on cable guides near to the top of the down tube. Does this mean that it had bar end shifters (the 1968 brochure of the Mistral shown bar end shifters).

The frame has obviously been messed around with (the filled in badge holes for instance), but it certainly looks like a Holdsworth to me. Whether it's a Mistral, I don't know. Can anyone help further. I've attached more pics.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:42 pm 
Old School Grand Master
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Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:41 pm
Posts: 8226
Location: Cumbria
Seat cluster looks very "Falcon San Remo"..........

http://www.flickr.com/photos/44434534@N00/250973114/

Not sure about the rest though.

Shaun


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:51 pm 
Retro Guru

Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:38 pm
Posts: 1468
Location: The Lovely Lincolnshire Wolds and by the sea in Sussex
Referring to my previous posts on this thread: I'm not convinced it is a Holdsworth, the badge dimension is about correct (mine are give or take a mm about 60mm apart).

Shorelines don't look quite good enough, and the fork crown doesn't look"right", and we have yet to get a seat post dimension (diameter), so we don't know the tubeset or at least the seat tube material.

OP, you seem very keen for it to be a Holdsworth - why? I have a Mistral (from new), and it just doesn't look like mine.

Roadking.

P.S wrapover stays, similiar lugs, frame dimensions and badge holes do not (necessarily) a Holdsworth make.
P.P.S to add, I've seen many Holdsworths that do not conform to catalogue specification - this includes Pros, Super Mistrals and Mistrals, one defining specification though, is Reynolds 531 DB throughout.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:37 pm 
rBoTM Winner
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Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:48 pm
Posts: 455
Location: N. Herts
Hi, I can understand trying to give an identity to the frame, and I don't think we are far away, examples of the thicker stay I talked about can be found at http://www.pedalroom.com/bike/1971-hold ... stral-1618 or http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/bi ... st-rb.html. I don't know if this muddy's or clears, the water. Terry


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