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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:46 pm 
Old School Hero

Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 11:24 am
Posts: 194
Location: London SW
Johnsqual wrote:
The RRVV has lots of women, kids, people with all kinds of bikes taking part. It's a really inclusive event. Surely you can't seriously be arguing that such an event would still be as inclusive if people were asked to pay 5-6 times as much?


IME Being cheap is a male characteristic, women won't bulge if told that the entry fee is 55 pounds... It's men who keep going on about how expensive a pint at the local is and then they buy a 5,000 bicycle or a 50,000 pounds car... women seem to have a less hypocritical approach to money


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:14 pm 
Retro Guru

Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 1112
pigman wrote:
Johnsqual wrote:
Making the cycling aspect unaffordable to most ordinary people seems a bad idea.
lets get this straight - ordinary people aren't into retrobiking. They will have a cheap-mediocre hybrid or MTB from Decathlon/Evans.
Quote:
Retro biking is a great way into cycling for everyone because you can start off with a 50 quid bike from gumtree and go from there.
joe public won't have time, skill or inclination to find such a bike and make it roadworthy. Take it to a LBS and it becomes no longer a £50 bike, but one for hundreds. and bear in mind, these bikes were the BSO's of their day.
Quote:
Why not build on that, instead of having another exclusive event that only well off people can pay for?
to me that's the way retrobiking has gone. Ebay and traders have pushed up prices so that it is no longer economically viable to keep your old stuff running. I now find economical to run most of my bikes on 10 speed modern stuff than stick with say 8 speed.
I'm sure there's a specialist community out there who will help each other out, but to the masses, if you want that that campag oil clip, it will cost.

Quote:
I think it's a shame people don't know who people like Hoban and Bainbridge are, and their stories are fascinating. This is a chance to try to change that.
as a hardened 30 yr+ cyclist, I've never heard of the latter (shame on me probably), but what chance has joe public got?


This reply seems confused to me.

Retrobiking to me takes in used bikes in general as well as expensive classic stuff. Keeping 8 speed campagnolo record with a titanium cassette or whatever going is expensive, keeping a 6 speed friction set up going doesn't have to be.

Most of the parts needed to put a simple, mid range bike in order are available from Decathlon or from a decent LBS.

A friend of mine bought a bike recently that just needed a new freewheel and chain to get it going. That cost him about 30 quid, not hundreds, as you claim.

The claim that people aren't into retrobikes is also overly cynical, sweeping and excessive. There's an annual bike jumble near me where 'Joe Public' (not just enthusiasts and dealers) come along and the bikes sell out by early afternoon, so there is at least some market for this stuff.

There are a range of decent resources (e.g. Sheldon Brown) out there so people can learn basic maintainence as and when they need it. That's how I started out, learning to adjust a stem, then service a hub, etc...

Maybe a lot of people would rather buy a BSO from Decathlon and chuck it away when it breaks. I wouldn't bet my house on retro stuff becoming a mass market, but I don't see what's wrong with encouraging people to take a different approach, and using retro events as a means to do that.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:25 pm 
rider | rBoTM Winner
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Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:42 pm
Posts: 5132
Location: Wakefield, Yorkshire
Montello wrote:
pigman wrote:
Quote:
I think it's a shame people don't know who people like Hoban and Bainbridge are, and their stories are fascinating. This is a chance to try to change that.
as a hardened 30 yr+ cyclist, I've never heard of the latter (shame on me probably), but what chance has joe public got?


me neither ... :oops:


I thought Bainbridge was a village in the Yorkshire Dales. In fact, I'm sure we stayed in a B&B there once.

I've never heard of him as a prominent British cyclist - and I'm supposed to know lots of things.

According to some people that is - not me :roll:

Back to the OP, even at £55 I doubt if I would 'enter' it. I don't want camping, publicity, marketing, hype, festival atmosphere. I just want to ride my bike in nice countryside alongside other cyclists that appreciate the retro scene. I can generally do that for free but would be prepared to pay a sensible entry fee provided the organiser was actually doing something to enhance the experience rather than just take my money and give me a load of ancillary b*ll*cks that I don't want - or need!

Call me a grumpy old man if you want :twisted:

I've been called worse..................


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:27 pm 
Retro Guru

Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 1112
ugo.santalucia wrote:
Johnsqual wrote:
The RRVV has lots of women, kids, people with all kinds of bikes taking part. It's a really inclusive event. Surely you can't seriously be arguing that such an event would still be as inclusive if people were asked to pay 5-6 times as much?


IME Being cheap is a male characteristic, women won't bulge if told that the entry fee is 55 pounds... It's men who keep going on about how expensive a pint at the local is and then they buy a 5,000 bicycle or a 50,000 pounds car... women seem to have a less hypocritical approach to money


I wouldn't say it's being cheap in this case, rather not being willing to be ripped off. You already said yourself that it's possible to organise a sportive for 15 quid or so a head, so why is it necessary to charge 3-4 times as much for this event?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:35 pm 
Retro Guru

Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 1112
[/quote]

I thought Bainbridge was a village in the Yorkshire Dales. In fact, I'm sure we stayed in a B&B there once.

I've never heard of him as a prominent British cyclist - and I'm supposed to know lots of things.

According to some people that is - not me :roll:

[/quote]

:facepalm: I meant Beryl Burton of course. :oops:

Must of got confused with all those Beryl Bainbridge novels me Nan used to make me take back to the library :oops:


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:51 pm 
Old School Hero

Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 11:24 am
Posts: 194
Location: London SW
Johnsqual wrote:
ugo.santalucia wrote:
Johnsqual wrote:
The RRVV has lots of women, kids, people with all kinds of bikes taking part. It's a really inclusive event. Surely you can't seriously be arguing that such an event would still be as inclusive if people were asked to pay 5-6 times as much?


IME Being cheap is a male characteristic, women won't bulge if told that the entry fee is 55 pounds... It's men who keep going on about how expensive a pint at the local is and then they buy a 5,000 bicycle or a 50,000 pounds car... women seem to have a less hypocritical approach to money


I wouldn't say it's being cheap in this case, rather not being willing to be ripped off. You already said yourself that it's possible to organise a sportive for 15 quid or so a head, so why is it necessary to charge 3-4 times as much for this event?


As a club we used to organise the Chiltern 100 (together with another club) for 15 quid. That is a non profit event, for about 1500 entrants, although something goes to charity. If you want to guarantee safety, you need a bigger number of marshals than we had and you can't probably rely on 100 volunteers... you might also want to involve the local police to patrol and marshall the busiest junctions (which we did not provide). You also want to provide some form of mechanical support (which we did not provide) and you might want to have more than two feed zones (as we provided) and offering a wide range of possibly local produce, for those who are not used to do 100 miles in 5-6 hours.
Realistically you can probably organise a GOOD Eroica Britannia with all the above for 30 quid per entrant, provided the numbers match your expectations. If you are a large club, you can do it that way and charge 35-40 pounds, so that something goes to charity and the club members are willing to give a hand with marshalling etc...
Or... you can be a bunch of individuals and pay people to do all of the above and the costs soar, as if there is no charity involved, nobody will work for free... hence the big entry fee if you want to even turn a profit.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:55 pm 
Retro Guru

Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:19 am
Posts: 2096
Location: Sheffield, top city
Johnsqual wrote:
This reply seems confused to me.

Retrobiking to me takes in used bikes in general as well as expensive classic stuff. Keeping 8 speed campagnolo record with a titanium cassette or whatever going is expensive, keeping a 6 speed friction set up going doesn't have to be.

Most of the parts needed to put a simple, mid range bike in order are available from Decathlon or from a decent LBS.

A friend of mine bought a bike recently that just needed a new freewheel and chain to get it going. That cost him about 30 quid, not hundreds, as you claim.

The claim that people aren't into retrobikes is also overly cynical, sweeping and excessive. There's an annual bike jumble near me where 'Joe Public' (not just enthusiasts and dealers) come along and the bikes sell out by early afternoon, so there is at least some market for this stuff.

There are a range of decent resources (e.g. Sheldon Brown) out there so people can learn basic maintainence as and when they need it. That's how I started out, learning to adjust a stem, then service a hub, etc...

Maybe a lot of people would rather buy a BSO from Decathlon and chuck it away when it breaks. I wouldn't bet my house on retro stuff becoming a mass market, but I don't see what's wrong with encouraging people to take a different approach, and using retro events as a means to do that.


sorry if you feel I was having a go at you, I wasnt, really. Most of what you've said in this thread I agree with. The main contention for me was that you feel that this is something to appeal to the mass public. Maybe you are right, I just don't feel it. It would be interesting to know how many of the italian l'eroica participants are Joe publics on their Raleigh Europa equivelents. And if we ever find out, you need to bear in mind that that is in a country with a positive perception of cycling.

To answer a few of the specifics on your reply, I would wager it is easier (and maybe cheaper?) to buy a new 10 speed cassette than a new 6 speed freewheel.
Maybe your mate was lucky with his new block and chain, but if it was me, I would at least be looking at cables, brake blocks, tyres & tubes - all items, which if they went wrong would give me a big headache. And despite there being websites out there, not everyone has the mechanical confidence or inclination to actually do it.
Nothing wrong with a different approach, in fact good retro is far better than cheapest modern.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:01 pm 
Retro Guru

Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 1112
Fair enough, that's a helpful breakdown. It still comes in at a lot less than what they were orignally asking, and less than their now reduced price. Plus they are going after a large number of sponsors and also going for corporate teams which presumably adds to their potential profits.

Personally I'd have started smaller and built something up a bit more gradually, which is closer to the (successful) model of the Eroica and RRVV. They've already secured the Eroica franchise so it's not like somebody else can organise a rival event under the same name.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:13 pm 
Retro Guru

Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 1112
pigman wrote:
Johnsqual wrote:
This reply seems confused to me.

Retrobiking to me takes in used bikes in general as well as expensive classic stuff. Keeping 8 speed campagnolo record with a titanium cassette or whatever going is expensive, keeping a 6 speed friction set up going doesn't have to be.

Most of the parts needed to put a simple, mid range bike in order are available from Decathlon or from a decent LBS.

A friend of mine bought a bike recently that just needed a new freewheel and chain to get it going. That cost him about 30 quid, not hundreds, as you claim.

The claim that people aren't into retrobikes is also overly cynical, sweeping and excessive. There's an annual bike jumble near me where 'Joe Public' (not just enthusiasts and dealers) come along and the bikes sell out by early afternoon, so there is at least some market for this stuff.

There are a range of decent resources (e.g. Sheldon Brown) out there so people can learn basic maintainence as and when they need it. That's how I started out, learning to adjust a stem, then service a hub, etc...

Maybe a lot of people would rather buy a BSO from Decathlon and chuck it away when it breaks. I wouldn't bet my house on retro stuff becoming a mass market, but I don't see what's wrong with encouraging people to take a different approach, and using retro events as a means to do that.


sorry if you feel I was having a go at you, I wasnt, really. Most of what you've said in this thread I agree with. The main contention for me was that you feel that this is something to appeal to the mass public. Maybe you are right, I just don't feel it. It would be interesting to know how many of the italian l'eroica participants are Joe publics on their Raleigh Europa equivelents. And if we ever find out, you need to bear in mind that that is in a country with a positive perception of cycling.

To answer a few of the specifics on your reply, I would wager it is easier (and maybe cheaper?) to buy a new 10 speed cassette than a new 6 speed freewheel.
Maybe your mate was lucky with his new block and chain, but if it was me, I would at least be looking at cables, brake blocks, tyres & tubes - all items, which if they went wrong would give me a big headache. And despite there being websites out there, not everyone has the mechanical confidence or inclination to actually do it.
Nothing wrong with a different approach, in fact good retro is far better than cheapest modern.


Thanks for that, I totally agree with your good retro vs cheap modern comparison. I'd prefer old Shimano 600 over
Alivio, for example, any day, and they come in about the same price these days.

I think in the end what depresses me about this event is that it seems targeted at an elite and well off market, both price wise and in marketing terms, whereas L'Eroica and RRVV seem much more inclusive (at least until L'Eroica bumped up their own prices).


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:35 pm 
PoTM Winner
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Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:21 pm
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Johnsqual wrote:

:facepalm: I meant Beryl Burton of course. :oops:



Feck me ... if you ride a bike and have not heard of probably the greatest female cyclist ever born there is no hope for you ...

Anyway I am sure this thread will give the organisers at the event plenty to chew on.

I just hope they engage in this forum to encourage everyone to support this in some fashion.


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