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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:29 am 
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Location: Completely in the dark, thanks to me good mate Terry....
rusty bodie wrote:
in that case i stand corrected - those are significant events!

thanks again, david

:oops:


In all fairness, amongst all of the TdF/Olympic stuff, Wiggo's other scalps during the 2012 season do seem to have been overlooked somewhat by the sports press. Shame as they're significant in their own right - e.g. in 65 years of the race being run, no Brit had won Romandie before last year's edition.

David


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:19 pm 
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Does make you wonder though. How many of the "nearly men" of Lance's generation (and right up to today) would have been global superstars had others not cheated? Would Chris Boardman have had more pro wins? Would Carlos Sastre? Would LeMond have won more tours?

Interesting article on the beeb listed all the TdF winners tainted by doping, yet listed Big Mig in the clean category - he failed a dope test when going for the hour record... So his wins should come out as well.

Wonder if there's any chance some of the "clean" riders from that generation could launch a class action suit for loss of earnings against those proven to have cheated?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:17 pm 
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BigFoz wrote:
Does make you wonder though. How many of the "nearly men" of Lance's generation (and right up to today) would have been global superstars had others not cheated? Would Chris Boardman have had more pro wins? Would Carlos Sastre? Would LeMond have won more tours?

Interesting article on the beeb listed all the TdF winners tainted by doping, yet listed Big Mig in the clean category - he failed a dope test when going for the hour record... So his wins should come out as well.

Wonder if there's any chance some of the "clean" riders from that generation could launch a class action suit for loss of earnings against those proven to have cheated?


I'd have to answer an unequivocal "yes" re. Boardman - the promise and the talent was of course there, and he showed well in the shorter stage races such as the Dauphine and the Criterium International, taking the GC in the '96 edition of the latter, sadly the playing field was less than level. Speaking of 1996, it seems to have been a near-stellar year for Chris, the only omission being a TdF time trial win, though he did bag a top-40 GC placing, again pretty good considering what he was up against. See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Boar ... mar.C3.A8s. All told, some of his Romandie, Dauphine and Paris-Nice exploits compare pretty well with Wiggo's achievements.

As for Lemond, I remember watching the 1991 TdF on Channel 4 and just assuming he was past his best. With hindsight, given the way the sport was going around that time, it seems clear there were other forces at work which put him at a disadvantage. The following year, of course, we were treated to Chiappucci's too-good-to-be-true Sestriere performance....

David


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 Post subject: LA rolls on...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:02 pm 
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For me I've been sceptical about the whole Lance phenomenon for some time, and this story has stioll a long way to run yet.

I am very dissappointed with the whole Wiggo media circus, he and Brailsford have been knighted now (and Wiggo always stated he didn't want to be a celeb and hates the celeb culture in the UK).

Also hasn't Sky been tainted by the Armstrong affair? Yatsey left as it was reaching a crescendo (Yatesy was/is a good friend of LAs).

I thnk Chris Hoy should have kept quiet about Amstrong too.

What makes me most sad is the lack of acknowledgement of all the superb competitors that never got awards (CBEs, Knighthoods), Brian Robinson, Graham Webb, Barry Hoban, Robert Millar, Paul Sherwen, Sean Yates, Steve Jones, Malcolm Elliot...the list is a long one.

These guys were riding in France, living in hovels, washing their own kit (not choosing their races either), not languishing in a Formula One style team bus having gofers fetch and carry for them.

Millar for a number of years was our most successful major tour rider - let's not forget the old timers!

Rant over.


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 Post subject: Re: LA rolls on...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:37 pm 
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roadking wrote:
What makes me most sad is the lack of acknowledgement of all the superb competitors that never got awards (CBEs, Knighthoods), Brian Robinson, Graham Webb, Barry Hoban, Robert Millar, Paul Sherwen, Sean Yates, Steve Jones, Malcolm Elliot...the list is a long one.


Robinson was a class act (personally I admired his modest "faire le metier" approach to racing), and massively under-rated - I think the fact that his mantle was effectively taken over by the larger-than-life Tom Simpson means that his career isn't remembered quite as well as it should be. Fingers crossed he gets to wave the flag for the 2014 Grand Depart in Yorkshire - even Barry Hoban's rooting for him on that front!

David


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:18 pm 
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Add Bob Maitland to any list of British tour rider who gave their best.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:44 am 
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Let's be honest, anyone who thought Armstrong was clean probably believes in Santa and the Tooth Fairy.

Cycling at the time was rife with drugs and cheating with people being caught regularly. For a clean rider to win 7 in a row he would have been the greatest and fittest human of all time, never mind the fittest and best cyclist.


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 Post subject: Re: LA rolls on...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:52 pm 
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roadking wrote:

What makes me most sad is the lack of acknowledgement of all the superb competitors that never got awards (CBEs, Knighthoods), Brian Robinson, Graham Webb, Barry Hoban, Robert Millar, Paul Sherwen, Sean Yates, Steve Jones, Malcolm Elliot..

Millar for a number of years was our most successful major tour rider - let's not forget the old timers!


HEAR HEAR!!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:11 pm 
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I do think a litle more perspective could be employed when looking at the transgressions of Armstrong, and the alarmingly large number of riders who have been either fingered for doping or at least accused.

I'm no fan of doping, and if it can be purged from the sport then that would indeed be great. But when Armstrongs first places are stripped from the record books, and they don't promote the other riders, am I the only one thinking that it must be so rife that the powers that be, just don't know what to do with the past.

And it is not only the Armstrong era. I remember reading a fair few fruity articles implying that Hinault and other elite riders of his generation were using steroids at some point in their career, and of course Tommy Simpson was so wankered on speed and booze (trying to use the combo as a diuretic apparently) that he croaked on a hill.

But the difference is back in the 50s and 60s drugs were just one way of getting an advantage, and not viewed with the horror that drug use is regarded now. And because the sporting world didn't change it's attitude to drugs overnight, control and vilification have uncomfortably shuffled in when the public profile of the sport was increasing. So you just have to start hitting harder and harder, apologising more and more, till our beloved sport has the reputation it has now.

For gods sake, the USA track team were boasting at the 1984 olympics that they were using blood packing (enriching the corpuscular denstiy by re-transfusing centifuged red cells; an effect that is also achieved by using EPO(which is so much safer)) technology to enhance their performance.

Lance Armstrong was just the top deck on a house of cards that had to come toppling down sooner or later. Taking drugs is bad, but being an agressive bully and a manipulative self-serving wanker is worse; he can stop taking drugs, but his personailty won't change.

They should draw a line under the past now. If a rider won on drugs and they have retired, let it go provided the come clean and apologise. If they won on drugs and are still riding, then they must confess now, lose their past results but have a clean sheet. If they do not confess now, and later are found out, they will be erased from the sport. Along with any new riders that start today who will also be premanently expunged from the sport should they transgress.

It is only by being draconian for a generation that a new order will arise.

That's my scattershot ten-pennyworth, and for what it is worth, I still have all those memories of the LA rolercoater ride, and tainted as it may be, it was all very entertaining (and TDF on telly is only there as entertainment).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:37 pm 
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sletti wrote:
They should draw a line under the past now. If a rider won on drugs and they have retired, let it go provided the come clean and apologise. If they won on drugs and are still riding, then they must confess now, lose their past results but have a clean sheet. If they do not confess now, and later are found out, they will be erased from the sport. Along with any new riders that start today who will also be premanently expunged from the sport should they transgress.

It is only by being draconian for a generation that a new order will arise.
Aye that might be a workable solution and would draw a well defined line from past events


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