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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:01 am 
Old School Grand Master
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Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:04 pm
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Location: Completely in the dark, thanks to me good mate Terry....
Ivo wrote:
Watching Ebay a lot (and having a certain interest in British audax frames) I have the impression that British frames are relatively high in the price range. Especially when compared with French frames on the French Ebay.

Personally I don't have that many Italian frames, usually they don't suit my riding style. Current projects consist of 2 Dutch, 1 British, 1 German and 1 Swiss frame.


Hmm - we haven't really touched on the Swiss yet. Edco-equipped* Mondia, anyone?

David

*OK, so they did source some of their groupset bits from Italy and France.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:34 pm 
Retro Guru

Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:59 pm
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Location: Chez Vegas, Derbyshire
Ivo wrote:
Watching Ebay a lot (and having a certain interest in British audax frames) I have the impression that British frames are relatively high in the price range. Especially when compared with French frames on the French Ebay.

Personally I don't have that many Italian frames, usually they don't suit my riding style. Current projects consist of 2 Dutch, 1 British, 1 German and 1 Swiss frame.


Schhhhh ! I've bought a quite a bit of stuff from eBay France because it is a lot cheaper + I was hoping to keep it a secret ! :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:53 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:43 pm
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NeilM wrote:

. . . . . . . yet French bikes hardly seem to figure at all on the forum, although I'm sure they do in France.

. . . . . . . . there are almost no bikes that I have seen here that are held in such high regard or are sold for the kind of values that Italian machinery does.




Good points, imo.

I think that it is largely down to fashion and personal tastes. On a V-CC ride, I was asked what bike I was on - "a Geliano", I replied.

"Oh, Italian crap", responded a guy on an ancient Holdsworth.

Thing is though, Gelianos were actually made in France; they gave them an Italian sounding name, to make them more appear more desirable. A few French manufacturers have done likewise. Even if he didn't approve, the V-CC guy certainly believed it was a bike manufactured in Italy.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:25 pm 
Old School Hero

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:19 pm
Posts: 163
Location: Maastricht
David B wrote:
Ivo wrote:
Watching Ebay a lot (and having a certain interest in British audax frames) I have the impression that British frames are relatively high in the price range. Especially when compared with French frames on the French Ebay.

Personally I don't have that many Italian frames, usually they don't suit my riding style. Current projects consist of 2 Dutch, 1 British, 1 German and 1 Swiss frame.


Hmm - we haven't really touched on the Swiss yet. Edco-equipped* Mondia, anyone?

David

*OK, so they did source some of their groupset bits from Italy and France.


Me? No, it's a Verago, a tiny manufacturor in Switzerland. But I do have a wheelset with Edco Hubs. If I can source a new set of freewheel pawls I could use it for the Verago.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:07 pm 
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NeilM wrote:
I'm still a bit puzzled why certain Italian frames sell for so much more than comparable British frames. Surely either could be finished with the same Campag running gear.

There are exceptions of course, but in general terms a Colnago, CIOCC or Tomassini (sp?) will out value a Jackson, Rourke or Mercian all day.

Is it just down to perceived style?


Not sure about the last-mentioned. Used Mercians go for tidy sums on eBay, and seem to have a bit of a cult following Stateside.

David


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:14 am 
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I suspect the Americans have been keeping what's left of high-end UK steel frame-building in business for years. Italian frame-building too, probably.

Road-bike fashions in the UK are surely a result of continental peloton-watching, and when was the last time a Jackson, Rourke or Mercian was seen in a peloton even in the UK, much less on the continent? If they are still seen anywhere in competitive cycling, it's probably in UK time-trials.

Apologies for banging on about the '70s, but my bike-spotting started in the mid-70s, around North London area, and I remember that back then you would scarcely, if ever, see an Italian-framed bike on the roads. No doubt a few people had something stashed away that they had imported themselves, but I don't remember ever seeing them. If we are talking about top-end bikes, you were just as unlikely to see a French-framed bike, maybe an occasional Peugeot... I remember one of my local bike shops had on display in the window a white Peugeot which must have been near the top of the range, perhaps a little dated... 531db, sprints/tubs etc., this in a shop which probably had nothing else in stock anywhere near the same quality. Back then I never anywhere saw any Italian bike displayed thus, and if they'd had it, you can bet they would have displayed it.

In my neck of the woods, mid to late '70s, if you ever saw someone out on a really nice bike, if it wasn't a Raleigh/Carlton, it was usually a Holdsworth/Roy Thame, Shorter, Ken Ryall, Roberts, Bird, or Dave Russell, probably because that was the stuff that any of the local time-trial fast-men who got their photo in Cycling Weekly could be seen riding. I can't remember exactly when, but some time in the '80s, this changed, and any fancy bike you saw on the roads, especially in London, usually turned out to be a Colnago, Rossin, Gios, Ciocc or Olmo. I wasn't looking at Cycling Weekly much any more so I don't know if the same thing had happened in there.

I doubt that there was, on average, any qualitative difference between the UK-built frames and the Italian ones that replaced them. I guess the UK builders favoured Reynolds tubing by default and the Italians favoured Columbus. So yes, the fashion changed, as it always does, and of course those who stood to profit from the change could stoop to some pretty low tactics... I remember a big advert in the back of Cycling Weekly, somewhere in which it was suggested (in small print) that you get rid of your "classic English wheel-wobbler" (that is what it said) in favour of something new, probably Italian, at least in name, and, by implication, something miles better. Also, regardless of frame quality, it seems those selling the Italian stuff can get away with using a lot of advertising which works on an emotional level, and provokes glamourous, often unrealistic associations... If you are given a choice between Milan-San Remo and London to Holyhead, which are you likely to choose?... What about if you are Milanese?

Quote:
"Oh, Italian crap", responded a guy on an ancient Holdsworth

I suppose whoever said that, he was jesting, especially since even as early as the '30s, Holdsworth had a model named; 'Stelvio', and what's more, many of the UK framebuilders, Holdsworth included, spent the second half of the '60s boasting about the 'Italian' features on their frames; sloping or semi-sloping fork crowns, long-point lugs, often Prugnat, (which are French anyway..)


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