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 Post subject: Land Speed Record.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:48 pm 
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Location: The Lovely Lincolnshire Wolds and by the sea in Sussex
Didn't Dave Le Grys do 110mph behind a Rover V8 race car in 1986?

I've not followed this thread so may have missed the point, admire Obree though - wasn't there a feature film made about him recently?

Rk.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:29 pm 
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:25 am 
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Hi David :-) "Presumably a refined version of the old Benelux approach". I'm a strange chap in that I know almost nothing of history on most topics. I'm like that because a long time ago I decided that "influence clouds innovation" (it's the artist in me, I'm also a sculptor). When we have ideas in our head borne of "modification of existing kit" they become just that, a revamped version of something already here. As an innovator I simply look at the issue and use science/know how/experience to reach a result. Before your post my friend I was unaware that it had ever been attempted, but from Neds beautiful image I see it has :-) However I can see why it failed to become the leading design, it is flawed on almost every level, but is great history/art considering when it was designed. It's hard to believe that before Tulio cracked the design, the parralelogram was un-invented, a design that is pure engineering genius and hard to beat.

My design was borne of the problems of the cages, and this constant wear & tear of their appearance. I decided to dispose of the cage altogether, and the jockeys, which is when the parralelogram also got kicked into touch. If I get time I'll post some pics, but for now, "mine is based upon triangulation and a hydraulic / magnetic sliding triangle appearing from within another. It has 1 steel jockey. Thanks for asking though :-) (ps: I'm not afraid to talk about my work or post images. I'll never be the guy to mass market it, and I'm too old and tired to get involved in patents again) All the best, Laz.

PPS: Obree is much more than a breath of fresh air for me, he really is a genuine innovator, who perhaps 1 day will receive the credit due for his work in bike design. I know he is a loveable guy, who rides like a man possessed, but for me, his innovations will last the entire history of cycling. He simply set out to design the bike that suited him, that would make him fast, as fast as possible. He did it of his own accord with no money or backing, and often humiliation & mockery, but he soldiered on regardless. He didn't set out to change the world OR rock the boat, but he did, and he did it BIGTIME. For this he was punished by the WCF. I guess it really hurts to know he will be remembered only for his cycling abilities & not really for his doggedness that lead to his "new way of riding". It stands still to this day and spawned the tri-bar stuff etc. Perhaps until now, no-one has really noticed & thus attributed the changes in cycling to HIM and him alone. I don't think even he has noticed just how much his way of cycling spawned so many new ideas in bike design, he just craves ways of achieving his goal, and sees nothing else :-)
......................

Hi duck :-) "he's planning on doing it this year". The exact month is in the link. All the best, Laz. (ps: read these boards and after a few days you'll need counselling & headache tablets you'll learn so much :lol: )
......................

Hi again Lewis :-) I know where you're coming from re: spine tingling, I've become almost obsessed with his concept and really need to see a better version of his machine. I'm no expert on recumberment cycling and drive placement, but I'm sure they use "extra gears/chainsets to get ratios to function :roll: . Me personally I'd opt for twin chainset - dual drive on a rear flipflop, but engaging the second (leftside/non DS) at the right speed requires a bit of working out. I recently read all about the LEJOG speed record set by a concept bike, but there was no mention of gearing ? All the best, yours Laz.
........................

Hi Ned :-) So nice to see you in here, "there is never too much history in a post my old friend, only not enough :-)" What do you think of the "Obree Teardrop Theory ?" "Use the bike to propel the bodyweight NOT drag it ?". I'm simply gobsmacked at what that means, because it makes perfect sense. All the aerodynamics in the world cannot compensate for drag when proplusion is a know fact of achieving speed, after all, "a bullet is not dragged out of the barrel of a gun, it is propelled :-)" Take care buddy, yours Laz.

ps: "beautiful bike by the way, stunning work of art".
........................

Hi RK, nice to see you here too :-) " check out the link buddy, the man himself is on it :-)" As for land speed records on a bike, the current record is 82mph BUT it was achieved without any aid from draughting/cadging a slipstream lift/being towed for an easy start, it was just 1 man and his bike and his legs. There are quite a few records for speed on bikes, but craziest was a nutter who basically threw himself off a mountain and got upto 130+ mph. Going down a mountain sort of helped though. Later buddy, Laz.
........................

Hi Gaspipe :-) Yeah, seen it a few times now buddy, and I still wish he'd smack those jerks over the head with his bike. A very moving insight into his "life and how he pays for his obsessions". The tree part was very sad indeed. I wonder how he'd feel if a "troupe set off for his hometown, raising money on the way, gathering more riders as it gets nearer, a sort of South to North ride in his honour, and fundraiser (he looks like he could do with it). I guess if a 1000+ riders turned up "just to say hello & wish him well, he might just realise how loved he is within the cycling world". The guy is a genuine sorta person you know :-) Later buddy, Laz.
.......................

As for me, "what do you reckon I upload my current designs for his bike ?" So we can all ponder, think, laugh, and enjoy the trials & tribulations of bike designing ?" Later everyone, Laz.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:29 am 
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Location: Sheffield, top city
Lazarus wrote:
PPS: Obree is much more than a breath of fresh air for me, he really is a genuine innovator, who perhaps 1 day will receive the credit due for his work in bike design. I know he is a loveable guy, who rides like a man possessed, but for me, his innovations will last the entire history of cycling. He simply set out to design the bike that suited him, that would make him fast, as fast as possible. He did it of his own accord with no money or backing, and often humiliation & mockery, but he soldiered on regardless. He didn't set out to change the world OR rock the boat, but he did, and he did it BIGTIME. For this he was punished by the WCF. I guess it really hurts to know he will be remembered only for his cycling abilities & not really for his doggedness that lead to his "new way of riding". It stands still to this day and spawned the tri-bar stuff etc. Perhaps until now, no-one has really noticed & thus attributed the changes in cycling to HIM and him alone. I don't think even he has noticed just how much his way of cycling spawned so many new ideas in bike design, he just craves ways of achieving his goal, and sees nothing else :-)
yay +1


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:38 am 
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The guy is a proper shed genius, good luck fella and hope he smash's the record.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:50 am 
Section Moderator & South West AEC
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i like Obree, i hope he does it, i like his 2 fingers up to the establishment attitude! :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:35 pm 
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As much as I admire Obree for what he did in the nineties, the HPV record breaking "establishment" is also peopled by a group of strong, creative amateurs. Google "Matt Weaver", "Virtual Edge", "Sam Whittingham" and "Varna Diablo" if you want to see what he's up against. These guys are extremely experienced in recumbent design and racing - strong track riders like Jason Queally have tried and failed to make a dent in the record.

The prone position isn't new, and it generally hasn't done well in competition. Aerodynamics depend mainly on fairing design, and the prone position tends to limit chest expansion.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:06 pm 
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Great post. To see someone passionate about setting big targets, challenging the norm, asking the big questions and going ahead in every detail on their own demands nothing but praise. He is an inspirational athlete and engineer, and have I full respect for him. He gives it his best shot, and that's what counts.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:01 pm 
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Hi again :-) " I see what you mean Jim ... http://www.speed101.com/gallery/" quite impressive looking concept bikes, but why only so slow for all that technology ? I'm not knocking what they do, but it seems obvious to me that something is wrong with the concept itself, even if it has hit 82mph.

I get the impression they are using front wheel drive ? Why not twin wheel drive ? 1 pic on that link shows a woman holding what looks like a 70+ toothed chainring. This highlights the problem that drive/propulsion can only be acheived via larger chainrings. It is this I find intriguing because Obree's Teardrop Theory keeps proving itself, ALL of these people are dragging themselves & their vehicles, and not propelling themselves. The more you analyse the fundamental differences between drag & propel, the more the truth appears.

For what it's worth I'm not normally excited by new discoveries because they tend to be just revamped old ideas with new bells & tassles. Obree's idea challenges cycling in a manner that is like telling someone they have to go backwards in order to go forwards quicker. It's only a quick sketch, but following his theory, a bike that follows his discovery would look something like the image I've posted. The rear wheel drags towards the floor for more traction the faster the bike goes, because the main bike will lift slightly (fly) the faster it goes. The headset will be hydraulic so as to cushion the ride / allow some flexing. The theory of aerospace technology is "not to waste energy, even negative energy". Use airflow (drag) as propulsion ie:convert drag to output. Correct venting of Drag creates turbulance that then becomes airflow, "in short, force airflow where there is none via venting of the bike". Airflow with the least resistance is not really using airflow to create propulsion, they are 2 seperate concepts, with rules that cannot be applied to 1 another.

On another note, "I feel that land speed attempts should be on race tracks like those used for F1 OR perhaps those used by the Daytone races ie: huge banked oval tracks. Flat road has its own issues that work against the riders. I know steering at great speed is the issue, but the correct bike should be able to handle both issues. All the best, Laz.


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File comment: This is what they use now
recumberment bike1.jpg
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Obree's bike.jpg
Obree's bike.jpg [ 69.47 KiB | Viewed 1542 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:49 pm 
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Incase anyone wonders, " this is the chassis." The ariel view shows its true aero-dynamic form. It is carbon fibre & titanium & magnets & hydraulics. The concept is to gather headwind at the outset, and convert it to airflow at the rear. From the very tip of the "bodybars" it is shaped to divert airflow onto the mainframe. Once on the mainframe it is funneled through vents, over the bladed wheels and out as a compressed airflow at the rear. The wheels are powered/helped by magnets until "engagement occurs". This will allow for an easy start.

The upper torso is effectively "concealed behind the bodybars". The legs being at 90 degrees to the BB gives maximum output from the legs & bloodflow. Its certainly a lot of fun "toying with existing knowledge".

"Just been away for 2hours thinking some more & reading". It appears that gearing / transmission / ratios / drive positoning is the main hold up with progress ie: no-one can bump start an 80t x 12t system (or have the legs for it) .... madness continued :roll:

All help / knowledge on the following topics would be appreciated, Thanks.

Dual drive cranks: (not sram 9x3 stuff) two cranks left & right on a pista BB (equal spaced) connected to a flipflop rear wheel. What does anyone know about how this idea works and why it never took off ?

Direct drive: Using the back wheel itself when it's upto speed to become the biggest chainring in the system ? Has it ever been done before ? Also to drive the back wheel directly via cogs ie NO chain ?

Dual propulsion ie Simultaneous Front & Rear wheel drive, whereby both sets of wheels provide drive/motion to the cycle ?

All thoughts (tears of laughter) welcome :-) It's only some fun, but maybe we'll be the first online community to design a bike "live" :shock: . YES I'm nuts, but as I said at the start of this excellent post, "my imagination is on fire right now" and input from knowledgable folk will help me eliminate the non necessary. All the best Laz.

PS: I'm serious about doing this online for fun, you never know what might come of it :-) It's better than the repeats on telly anyways.


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