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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:26 am 
Section Moderator & South West AEC
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Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:33 pm
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Location: new forest
road frames will be 130mm and mtb 135


sorry for ranting! calmed down now . . . abit.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:27 am 
Gold Trader / PoTM Winner / RB Rider
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Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:45 pm
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Location: kent
measure your frame .

but 135mm is usually for MTB and road bikes are 130mm


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:28 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:16 pm
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it's cool. i am a beginner and want to know as much as possible so i take the rant for granted as well.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:44 am 
Section Moderator & South West AEC
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Location: new forest
wasn't ranting at you though! :D


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 Post subject: hope
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:24 pm 
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Just a reply to JohnnyBoy666:

I resent that outburst - how the hell do YOU know how much I am getting Hope stuff for eh? And who cares about your 'overheads' when all I was talking about was MARKUP. It was you who mentioned the word in the first instance. I never mentioned profit anywhere.
I think you need to calm down and negotiate a better deal with Hope. We are operating with 98% MARKUP (that is inc Vat and before overheads etc) on all Hope products except new V2 Moto brake sets and ProIII hubs and some other stuff where we are selling at about 80% MARKUP retail. I can make an estimate that the PROFIT is probably more than yours.
So, sorry for rattling yer cage but I'm only telling you how it is FOR ME!.
If you are suffering in your trade then get out - I hear it time and time again from lbs owners moaning on about people 'begrudging the bike trade a living' - its paranoic self-pity.
I should apologise also for any misleading details if anybody else is in the same boat as Johnnyboy666.
Anyway, who cares about Hope - I've always hated their 'Union Jack' logo - it probably loses them European sales.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:35 pm 
Section Moderator & South West AEC
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Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:33 pm
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Location: new forest
well we'll just have to disagree, i don't have self pity for the bike trade or the shop i run but the way you suggest it people should beable to get cheap stuff everywhere, why is it expected in the bike trade? you can't do it in other trades or shops, you try it in tesco or sainsburys! at the end of the day it's our wages! and i don't ask other people to go to work for less pay! and i'm sure you know that generally the wages in the trade aren't great so frankly, the more the shop takes hopefully the longer the good staff can afford to stay in shops and keep their good customers happy.

there are shops going bust all over the country, these are hard working people and they deserve a little more respect than begging for peoples change for expensive parts and work.

as for hating the union jack logo, possibly and probably your right about european sales, but thats no different to magura in the uk or the stars and stripes elsewhere in the world, that's just a daft comment.

your right that i did mention mark up first but i didn't mention numbers at that point, the reason i mentioned it was to illustrate that hope is an expensive part for dealer aswel as consumer as a good reason as to why he hadn't seen it cheap. and also by comparison with some other brands the mark up/profit as you will know isn't very good.

i assume from your reply that you are in the trade but if your prices are better than mine thats fine, you might do more business with hope and get a better rate but why encourage discounting of product, all it does is reduce your overall profit margins and if you protect them your business will do better and surely thats what you want. it seems stupid to me to offer an unessasary discount unless it's really needed to get a bigger sale,ie sell a big money bike and offer parts or whatever upgrade.

constantly doing deals and discount would be nice for the customers, after all everyone wants their wage packet to go as far as possible but eventually it shaggs your business and then the customer just goes to the next guy and then next after that, because really, he's not your mate he just wants a deal and at some point you won't beable to give him that deal and he'll try elsewhere. and after a while you'll be in a different job! at some point the retail trade generally has to stop it.

shop staff should sell product by knowledge and experience not by price.

i just don't get the constant discount attitude. with that attitude the trade will end up like the motor trade where people go get the bits they want and then go somewhere and pay stupid money for labour to get it assembled to offset the lack of parts sales that the mechanic doesn't get anymore.

you know, i didn't mean to rant earlier, i'm not generally an arsey person, but for some one in the trade to advocate something that long term could affect the survival of good shops around the country just really gets my goat.
i apologise if that upsets you but to quote someone else on this site if you don't like my opinion i have others.


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 Post subject: hope
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:33 pm 
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Ok, its a common attitude and not just from local shop owners.

I blame the multinational mail-order houses for every bad attitude in the cycle world. They've created discount-mad consumer junkies and its all part and parcel of the rise of rampant capitalisation and subsequent tirade of greedy little materialistic tossers. One trip to the local MTB fun park will prove that. Fatboys on 2yr old 4K rigs used 'sparingly' and without a scratch. And the other day I rode right up and past a guy on a Storck something or other doing about 10mph up a slight hump in the road - gasping for breath. The cycling world has gone mad.

But, back to the OLD days, and offering a little discount can go a long way to attracting the kind of customers you would like to go for a pint with. Or not as the case usually is. Any which way, its all about discreet economics and not brash gimmickry.

I'm not in the business of attracting 'pals' - but, ironically - the majority of bike shop owners I speak to share the same views as yourself and I can't be bothered to speak to them anymore - its just a constant parade of crashing bores. Even the reps try to rain on your parade. Maybe its time for strict RRP's - that might keep them quiet - at least I might get an invite to their exclusive 'lbs owners club' that I have suspected they have been running for years behind my back. Touch of paranoia there myself perhaps.

I reckon maybe you've suffered from the mail order house backlash. People coming in and telling you how much they can get it for elsewhere.
Theres an easy answer for them.

PS: I earned £12,500 pure profit last year. Optimism is just a frame of mind.

PPS: The Union Flag emblem is a PERSONAL pet-hate of mine. I do not expect anybody else to share my views. I have others too.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:26 pm 
Section Moderator & South West AEC
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Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:33 pm
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Location: new forest
i suppose i have suffered the "mail order backlash" but who hasn't? ebay does and doesn't help aswel. i'm sure you find it soul destroying when someone who you consider is a good customer comes in with a frame/part they bought on ebay/mail order cheaper than you could buy it for and asked you to supply the £2 part so that they can actually use it!(that they couldn't get elsewhere) i assume that annoys/upsets you, it does me. but as my boss says, "smile and take the money"

on the other hand sometimes somebody you don't know buys something like a frame 2nd hand on ebay and then asks you to build an entire bike giving you a good worshop job, it can go both ways.


your right in saying discount goes a long way but my point was it should be at our discretion as i said earlier, not just given away.

crashing bores and reps raining on your parade . . . hmm . . . possibly, but again if shops all went bust, then people would have to deal with the suppliers(who would become shops!) and they don't want that to happen, that is why they are trying to protect rrp's, the suppliers don't want to deal with warranty (amongst other things) on their doorstep when it should be a shop saying sorry mate, you abused that/that's not what that was for etc.

i assume your trying something individual with your shop which can be a great thing, individuality sells in a dull world. but i find it's worthwhile chatting to people in the trade (especially shop owners who have bought the t shirt!) from allover the country, it can give a better picture if the trade generally and maybe give you ideas that you hadn't previousley thought of, whether it be for sales, display, stock choices etc and i've always thought that reps generally are there to help you, i try not to piss them off (whats the point?) just so they are more likely to help me out if i get a problem.


as far as the "easy answer", it isn't an option for me, after working at john lewis you just can't do it, they beat that out of you!

i couldn't tell you our exact profits, it wouldn't be my place to anyway, but optimistic? i like to think so, but there's a bit of realism in there aswel

oh, the lbs society is meeting at whittlebury hall near silverstone on the 27th, fancy a beer? your buying the beers though, you make more on hope than i do! :wink: :D


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 Post subject: Big reply - sorry!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:01 am 
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Well, my perception of a good customer is one that returns at all! So that would mean that 80-90% of our customers are 'good'.

I have been entitling my posts 'Hope' and that is entirely what I have run on for about 25 years. just like your boss, I just smile and take the money - like a trained killer aiming and taking his victim. Ruthless and without thought.

No, seriously though - about 20 years ago I thought about diversifying into leisure goods - fitness stuff but then Boom! the MTB thing took off and I really pushed it. I got rid of the hopeless optimism and have been running on creativity and an eye for what people want ever since.

Location is a great thing too but I have found people will travel regardless, if the service AND price is right. I have made a name for myself in wheelbuilding but also use the best available within budget and find that it always follows that the lowest margins are to be made on the best stuff. Look at chinese hubs for eg. they LOOK the part so command similar prices for the end consumer than better quality less profitable hubs. They don't last but it is always made clear to the customer and they always make their own descision. The 'opportunity cost' always amazes me.

Ebay can be a dumping ground for old tat. I avoid it except for using it for friends of mine who don't have a computer and need stuff that I don't have. But, for the reasons you say - it can actually help by bringing new customers in for finishing kit and stuff they cant find on eBay. It amazes me that eBay is the first port of call for a lot of folk. Some of the 'BIN' prices there are terrible. Then youve got postage to pay.

Anyway, the years have told me that most self-employed have world domination in their soul. It starts with their first sale and before you know it they want the same quick-buck that has befallen empires over the years. Growth is fine if the business is sustainable but running at pure RRP will fail to bring you the growth expected unless you; offer a SALE, a wee discount for ALL customers, seasonal discounts on complete bikes and accessories, and bikes in boxes. But then.......that is HALFORDS and they sell 'car stuff' too. I will only ever sell a bike-in-a-box if the customer requests it and I will state that I would prefer to sell it complete - the way I would want to buy it. But this costs money and a lot of customers would rather dice with their DIY skills and then the impending 'Claims Direct' mission than pay a little to get it ready built.

ALL of the shops (in Scotland at least) that have expanded very well in the last few years and who run RRP are following this mode. But, the problem with most of them is that, to stay autonomous, they have turned to the darkside and have gone 'mail-order'. You might not notice but they are - and it is very difficult to operate this sweetly. The savvy customers turn away from the 'shop' and you end up with an ugly profile to manage. The end result often leads to surrendering to a buy-out or consolidation.

I don't have the time to go on and you probably don't want to hear it anyway so I will strive to meet at Silverstone. At least thats one invite - thanks.

I'll pop into COSTCO on the way for some cans.

:D


Last edited by lelobysfoot on Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: hope
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:52 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:46 am
Posts: 328
Just a note to Mauricer:

Have you considered Chris King hubs? They are lighter than they look, last for several human lifetimes and are available at good prices right now. Still expensive, but totally worth it. I have built loads for rich kids lately for DH pootering about.

You'll probably be able to get them in a similar colour to your Klein Frame.

Just a thought......


Last edited by lelobysfoot on Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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