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 Post subject: capella frame
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:04 pm 
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Just a couple of thoughts. If anyone had used capella lugs whilst Carlton where active I think they may have been done for copyright. After all capella lugs were made for carlton and therefore part of their trademarks.However once raleigh took over they would then own those trade marks and would be allowed to openly use that lugwork. If Raleigh also used that type of fastback rear stay you have a situation that would allow for that style of frame to be openly produced as a Raleigh Carlton.This would also tie in with fastback stays not being produced till the sixties Just a thought and as I have just got back from a long wet and windy ride the thinking bit might not be so good
Regards
Peter


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:35 pm 
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Midlife wrote:
E8049 was the frame number of Reg Harris' carlton track frame, it could be older than we think and date to the 60's when Carlton used to make individual frames to order.......

Shaun


EO is in a diamond close to the trar wheel edge of the BB shell....and 529 is to the front close to the lip of the BB shell and thats it.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:46 pm 
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Some Guy wrote:
As stated previously the EO is probably the makers stamp of the bottom bracket. Is the EO in a diamond shape? If it is, I've got the same on the bottom bracket of a Columbus tubed geared lo pro.

Yes the EO is encased in a diamond shape....is your shell pressed steel or cast steel BB?

"529" doesn't look like a Carlton frame number to me, but I'm no expert.

Yes unlike anything i have found on my research but i once had a Raleigh 531 Team Replica which had an atypical frame number

Is there any confirmation that it had AB transfers on it before Mario Vaz resprayed it and found some transfers in his drawer?

The person who had it when it was a blue bike [and this is where it gets confusing...asked for clarification]....ie in 2003-7 [dark blue pics]..had Alec Bird decals.....but prior to that by some years [1990s] he said he had a track frame and it had an unusual drilled Unicantor saddle.....which he believed was a Carlton [i've asked him if it at any time had any Carlton decals...waiting for a reply]....it was repainted and came back with Ken Bird decals....it was sold and he bought a track frame 10 years later [c2003]....with what looks like the same drilled unicantor saddle....but with Alec Bird decals...as i said confusing.....but what is the odds of the two frames being the same?.....I've asked if he remembers the frame number.


Whatever it is, it looks very nice!


I agree!


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 Post subject: Re: capella frame
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:59 pm 
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half cog wrote:
Just a couple of thoughts. If anyone had used capella lugs whilst Carlton where active I think they may have been done for copyright. After all capella lugs were made for carlton and therefore part of their trademarks.However once raleigh took over they would then own those trade marks and would be allowed to openly use that lugwork. If Raleigh also used that type of fastback rear stay you have a situation that would allow for that style of frame to be openly produced as a Raleigh Carlton.This would also tie in with fastback stays not being produced till the sixties Just a thought and as I have just got back from a long wet and windy ride the thinking bit might not be so good
Regards
Peter


Hi Peter...hats off to you for the brave ride!

Fair point.....which Dave Marsh considers a possibility too...so you are in good company.....and as fiks said it a rebadged Carlton due to the then owners proximity to Ken Bird's shop.....but if you read my previous post.....it is confusing...if it is the same frame....been badged as two seperate Birds; Ken and then Alec. and it is increasingly looking like its not an AB frame.....so your point becomes interesting...if it is a Raleigh-Carlton.....it would have to been made after 1981......which would make the 'random' 531c decal chosen by Mario Vaz to be perhaps not as random as i thought...but then again this could be red herring.....but i am coming round to the real possibility it is some sort of Carlton frame.....possibly involving Raleigh.....but what if it was a private frame made by someone at Carlton for their own use....so not for 'official' sale is that a possibility?....Could explain the odd frame number?

More when i hear anything new.....this is fun.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:17 am 
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This is from the chap who def owned the frame in 2005-8 and 'may' have owned as far back as 1988:

'when I bought it for the first time is was blue (the same as in the pics) but with Ken Bird decals on it, I bought it from the old bike shop in Tylney rd, bromley and the guy there told me it was actually a carlton that had been refinished, so it may or may have not been, I remember a couple of people saying it was carlton, and what with the lugs being capella ! at the time lots of frames were rebranded by the shops that resprayed them so it seemed to all fit. I took it as a carlton sprayed by (and badged up as a) ken bird, it would also have been worth more as a "new" ken bird rather than an "old" carlton


no idea on frame numbers I'm afraid, I wouldn't have even looked, old track iron was worthless back then, no one really wanted them and no one would have ever nicked it so I never bothered making a note ( I would now though !)

there was no hole in the brake bridge, the "mudguard" in pics is an old venicion blind kept there with the block of wood you can see in the photo, only way to go with no bridge hole for proper mounting.

can't remember which 531 decal it had I'm afraid, like i say, it was at the time a "cheap" training hack.

so to recap
bought and then sold as
blue "ken bird" the first time
blue "Alec bird" the second
but always belived to be an older carlton by me, but with no proof etc

no, the guy I bought it from the second time wasn't the guy I sold it to the first (I knew the first bloke)

obviously all this assumes that it was the same bike !!!
I'm sure the numbers must be look upable somewhere,'


Any comments or deductions based on this evidence?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:18 am 
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sawston_vulcan wrote:
Yes the EO is encased in a diamond shape....is your shell pressed steel or cast steel BB?
Sorry, I'm not sure how to tell the difference between a pressed or cast lug?

I came across this link a while ago while searching for something else www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-208881.html
There is a bit of banter between some chaps who used to work and shop in the Birds shops. If I read it correctly(?) it seems to imply that Ken didn't build frames, he just badged up bought in frames. An that Alec practicaly ceased building in late 1976(?). Now IF.. Alec did cease building then, I think it's highly improbable he'd have built with Carlton lugs, whilst Carlton were still trading? Maybe I've got these details wrong tho?
So I'd guess it's either a Carlton with a very unusual frame number. Did most high end Carltons have rivetted on headtube badges, does it have holes? (even if filled you'd probably see signs of this from inside the headtube).
Or a currently unknown frame built by a small builder, with some older Carlton lugs (which has been mentioned already, but they're 40ish quid on eBay today).

Maybe I've read your summary incorectly, but is it possible that the Alec Bird connection only came, when Mario Vaz found that was the nearest to a Ken Bird sticker he had in stock at the time?

I feel for your desire to put a name to it tho, I've got a '50s Nervex lugged bike which is similaly frustrating! Good luck!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:20 am 
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Midlife wrote:
http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/builders/youngs-builders.html

According to classic lightweights the fastback started with the Grandini frame of the 60's

Shaun


Earlier than that! Here's an advert from January 1958 by Mercian taken from a 'Sporting Cyclist'. The 'new method of fitting seat stays' was the 'fastback' style as we now call it. As the ad was in a January issue - and may have been in previous ones as well - then their design dates back to 1957 at least. However, as is usual in the bike game ('there's nothing that's ever really new') then it may well be even earlier.

I shall have to have words with Peter regarding the Grandini claim!

EDIT - also have a look at this 1958 Mercian just added to Classic Lightweights -

http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/bi ... ld-rb.html


Attachments:
MercianVigorelliAdJan58.jpg
MercianVigorelliAdJan58.jpg [ 133.37 KiB | Viewed 564 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:45 am 
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Thanks for your detailed contribution....see my replies below:

Some Guy wrote:
sawston_vulcan wrote:
Yes the EO is encased in a diamond shape....is your shell pressed steel or cast steel BB?
Sorry, I'm not sure how to tell the difference between a pressed or cast lug?

Unless you know...you don't!

I came across this link a while ago while searching for something else www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-208881.html
There is a bit of banter between some chaps who used to work and shop in the Birds shops. If I read it correctly(?) it seems to imply that Ken didn't build frames, he just badged up bought in frames. An that Alec practicaly ceased building in late 1976(?). Now IF.. Alec did cease building then, I think it's highly improbable he'd have built with Carlton lugs, whilst Carlton were still trading? Maybe I've got these details wrong tho?
So I'd guess it's either a Carlton with a very unusual frame number. Did most high end Carltons have rivetted on headtube badges, does it have holes? (even if filled you'd probably see signs of this from inside the headtube).

I may have read that..but at work and that ebsite is being censored 'unsuitable'.....so i'll check it when i get home.

Yes...Ken was the mechanic and wheelbuilder and Alec the frame builder...i believe they argued a lot.....but if you look at www.hilarystone.com I have seen Alec Bird frames according to HS dating from the 1980s.....and HS generally knows what he is talking about.....still does not explain the Carlton lugs....perhaps something that Dave Marsh will be able to throw some light on when he returns from holiday?

I will check for rivet holes this evening after work and report back.

Again with the frame number...it is unusual but i once had a Worksop Raleigh 531 Team replica with an unusual frame number....but what if a Carlton framebuilder was doing a 'one off' frame for themselves?....Then sold it on?...or perhaps it was a side line....these are all guesses....but could explain the lugs and if done after Raleigh took over the Worksop site...could explain the fastback seatstays....my Raleigh 531 TR had fastback stays....again a wild guess but plausible......Dave Marsh thinks that is possible.

Or a currently unknown frame built by a small builder, with some older Carlton lugs (which has been mentioned already, but they're 40ish quid on eBay today).

This would fit in with an ex-Carlton/Raleigh frame builder..who perhaps bought old stock....or perhaps a not so ex framebuilder??

Maybe I've read your summary incorectly, but is it possible that the Alec Bird connection only came, when Mario Vaz found that was the nearest to a Ken Bird sticker he had in stock at the time?

No....the timeline is 1988=Ken Bird decals....but believed to be a Carlton

Then he bought a frame in 2003 with Alec Bird decals, [that the owner of the Ken Bird decaled frame thought was the same but with different decals....Alec B replacing K Bird.....so Mario was replacing like with like......it is possible the KB frame and the AB frame is totally different....however...chap sells a bike with a disctinctive saddle and a frame with Capella lugs that he believes to be an 'old' Carlton frame and buys a frame 10 years later witht the same Capella lugs and the same disctinctive saddle but the frame has been resprayed with Alec Bird decals.......he bought it in 1988 in Bromley close to the KB shop and the bloke he bought it off [different person]...lived in Bromley...Coinicidence? On the balance of probabilities it is the same frame can't prove it as he does not remember the frame number....he just 'feels' its the same.


I feel for your desire to put a name to it tho, I've got a '50s Nervex lugged bike which is similaly frustrating! Good luck!


If i was a betting man.....i'd say its a 'rogue' Carlton-Raleigh frame....with 531 D/B tubing......but when? Each turn raises as many questions as it answers.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:42 am 
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http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Britis ... n_trac.htm

This might be interesting....This is a quoting the source verbatim...but if correct...a Raleigh frame made at Ilkeston with Capella lugs....in my case ignore the forks but the possibility raised by Dave Marsh that the frame could be a Raleigh is possible?

'Ilkston workshop super trick track (pursuit) frame with hollow
fork crown and drilled Carlton Capella head lugs.'

Image


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:01 pm 
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Got a reply from Dave Marsh and though it is a negative outcome...it is still an interesting one.....his comments are below as follows:

'Hi Leon,
Thank you for sending the photos of the track frame built with capella lugs ,

I will keep this short and sweet, the frameset that you have is neither a Carlton or an Ilkeston Raleigh.

There are several ways of identifying both and this frame that you have is definitely neither of the above .

As I said on the phone the lugs could have been purchased from the Carlton factory in Worksop when it closed in 1981.Dealers from around the UK called at the factory when clearing out stocks before closing for business.

Sorry I cannot be of any more use identifying your frameset.


Regards


Dave Marsh '


So despite phooq being told it was a Carlton [probably because of the Capella lugs].....it is not a Carlton or any Carlton derivative...so on the balance of probabilities it has to be an Alec Bird....as even if it was decaled as a ken Bird....it would would have been made by Alec.

So unless anyone can comment to the contrary.....or can give me a lead.....anyone know where i can contact Simon Bird [Ken's son and Alec's nephew]?.....I must conclude the frame was built by AB with Capella lugs bought from the Carlton factory after they closed in 1981 [a bit like cluedo that]......so possibly 1981....so before 531c...so still 531DB.....Any comments forum members?


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