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 Post subject: Sloping top Tubes
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:56 pm 
Dirt Disciple

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:50 am
Posts: 11
Location: Wakefield
Some of the early sloping top tubes came from the smaller mountainbike manufacturers eg. Bontrager road lite where they had developed the idea on mountain bikes.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:37 pm 
Retro Guru

Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:57 pm
Posts: 774
I'd suspect that the 'culprits' were either the aforementioned Keith Bontranger or more likely Ross Shafer at Salsa with the LaRaza in - interesting both had experience in building road frames before MTBs. In the UK, Dave Lloyd had his Concept 90 bike complete with 650c wheels.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:44 pm 
Old School Grand Master
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Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:21 pm
Posts: 5785
Location: Lost in Translation
roadking wrote:
You're absolutely correct, you didn't mention the TdF I did merely to make a point about marketing and pro cycling. The TdF being the"model"for pro cycling as a global marketing tool.

Perhaps while we're quibbling, we should perhaps substitute"marketing" for"promotion"when referring to pro cycling and this subject in the classic period (say before 1987).

To save argument, I'll concede that professional cycling has undergone a transformation from an international promotional tool during its classical period to a global marketing tool today, if you'll grant that international and global (referring in each case to some subset of terrestrial markets) and promotional and marketing (referring to the act of selling) are, respectively, broad synonyms.

While you've got your thesaurus out, look up material (adj.)

Then explain to me the difference between a kid in 1999 who bought a Giant TCR because Jalabert rode one, and a kid in 1966 who bought a Peugeot PX10 because Merckx rode one...

PS

Banesto is a medium-sized Spanish bank

PPS

> There was the early wave of the English speakers

Zimmerman, Opperman, Major Taylor


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 Post subject: Re: Frames.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:51 pm 
Old School Grand Master
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Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:21 pm
Posts: 5785
Location: Lost in Translation
roadking wrote:
make them in three sizes: small, medium and large.

Instead of 21", 23", and 25".

Quote:
Steel is real, anything else is just a compromise.

Steel is real.

Did Lance Armstrong win seven Tours de France on an imaginary bicycle?

:shock:

Quote:
Sports sponsorship is an interesting subject and one that I've been fortunate enough to be published.

Every man his own publisher. Isn't the Internet wonderful?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:48 pm 
Old School Grand Master
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Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:21 pm
Posts: 5785
Location: Lost in Translation
Quote:
Burrows wasn't tied to traditional road-bike styling or construction, and Giant as a relative newcomer to the pro peloton was in a position to try something different. The ONCE team time trial successes of the late nineties showed that the concept was basically sound.

I'll add that Burrows had gone to Giant largely because of his work on the monocoque frames that became the olympic Lotus Bike project, and the flagship project at Giant was the MCR monocoque bike. No sooner was it ready for market than the UCI effectively banned monocoque frames in road racing.

The set-up costs for moulded frames depend very strongly on the number of sizes made (each size needs its own moulds and tooling) and Giant would have put a lot of effort into fitting the greatest number of riders to the smallest possible number of frame sizes. The TCR compact frames shared the long aero seatpost and adjustable quill stem of the MCR as well as its distinctive carbon-spoked wheels.

Giant brought compact frames to the mainstream, but there were many previous examples in small production runs, especially to fit smaller riders. The Klein Kirsten is one example:

http://bp0.blogger.com/_hSZo5vjiPmQ/Rx- ... Advert.jpg

Certainly, Bontrager, Charlie Cunningham and all the rest were building in small numbers with sloping top tubes back in the eighties, but I don't recall seeing many in the peloton before Giant became frame sponsors to the ONCE team.

In France, a compact frame is known as "un cadre slooping". Taking things one step further, Daniel Hanart - an artisan builder in aluminium from Roberval near Compiègne describes the geometry of one of his creations as "snooping"!

http://technicycle.free.fr/Legerete1.htm


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:58 pm 
rider | rBoTM Winner
rider | rBoTM Winner
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Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:42 pm
Posts: 5132
Location: Wakefield, Yorkshire
I remember the Chesini frames making an appearance in 92 or 93, like the one shown here -

http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewto ... ht=chesini

I thought they were rather ugly at the time and don't remember seeing any others like them for a few years until the Giant frames appeared - and I ended up with one! They look quite normal to me now.

Were the Chesini frames the fore-runners of 'compacts' or did the ones mentioned above precede them?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:10 pm 
Retro Guru

Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 4:13 pm
Posts: 636
Location: Scarborough
I'm really enjoying reading this thread. Compact frames essentially happened while I was busy discovering girls, booze and cheap cars - my road bike knowledge halted with a brand new Raleigh Elan in James' Cycles of Sheffield in about 1988 and re-started with a random visit to Harry Halls in Manchester, where I found myself surrounded by Specializeds with their flash-Harry bent top tubes, thinking "What on earth happened here?!?!"

HH's have one of their own vintage road bikes decorating the wall above the stairs, and I just ended up thinking - "That's what I want - why can't I buy one like that?". It's good to have that question answered! Has anyone ot any photos of the early Giants knocking about?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:17 pm 
Old School Grand Master
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Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:21 pm
Posts: 5785
Location: Lost in Translation
Goldie wrote:
Has anyone got any photos of the early Giants knocking about?

These are from the Giant site archive, from 1999:

MCR (monocoque):

http://archive.giant-bicycles.com/image ... CR_eur.gif

TCR1:

http://archive.giant-bicycles.com/image ... R1_eur.gif

TCR ONCE:

http://archive.giant-bicycles.com/image ... cplica.gif

and TCR geometry:

http://archive.giant-bicycles.com/de/ca ... delid=9501


This thread has pictures of a circa 1997 TCR that's lost its aero seatpost:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showth ... p?t=202254

and here's another that's kept it:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/freakynami ... otostream/


Last edited by one-eyed_jim on Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:10 pm 
rider | rBoTM Winner
rider | rBoTM Winner
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Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:42 pm
Posts: 5132
Location: Wakefield, Yorkshire
This is mine from a couple of years ago. By then it had lost the aero seatpin (wish I had it now!), the carbon spoked wheels (a bit dodgy if the rumours are correct), the adjustable stem (heavy) and the stem fitted was a 'threadless' type on an adaptor. I still have it but set up as a TT bike with tri-bars etc. Please note that the brake stirrups had been temporarily removed at the time of photographing - they were replaced!

I got it originally in '99 I think from a good mate with connections at Giant who were selling old stock from the warehouse. It is an early one with the 'rough' welds not smoothed off and is a medium. They only did the 3 sizes then (S.M & L) but now also have 'Large Medium' which would probably be better for me. It is very light and rigid but I feel it a bit harsh at the rear end over long rides - which is why I use it as a short distance TT bike now.

The original groupset was 8 speed 105 with the STI levers. I still use it on another bike and it continues to work fine.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:26 pm 
Retro Guru

Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:19 am
Posts: 2096
Location: Sheffield, top city
I never had an aero seatpost - thankfully - they look awful. An aero post into a round tube just dont work , but we're all different i guess.

The one reason I keep my giant (2003 model TCR in alum) is the 55.5cm top tube. Most medium (54cms) bikes tend to have shorter top tubes , circa 54 cms. The longish top tube is superbe for descents - best handling bike Ive ever had.

(going a bit modern now) but a mate who spends loadsa dosh on bikes reckons that his tmobile carbon frame is the best frame he's ever owned, no question. The newer giants (tcr advanced), altho' a bit lighter have lost that zip and stiffness in an effort to be competitive on the weighing scales. Pity the tmobile colours have dated so badly cos I know of NOS one I'd consider buying if it were different colours.


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