Do we need more than just Campag, Shimano & SRAM?
- Thread starter ZG862
- Start date
.- Feedback
- View
Righto, carbon fiber/re - huge environmental disaster waiting to happen. Extraordinarily difficult to recycle and landfill when it goes wrong.
There is a discernible move by manufacturers back to the wonder metal that is aluminium and its cheaperer for them and nice for the share holders
Cycling was always the greenest form of transport but its credentials were getting muddied by that awful black stuff and there is no real excuse to use it anymore. But, but! Its sooooo light! and really brings the trails alive! Ok but what the actual **** are you supposed to do with it when it fails?
And the next dirty secret is tyres; https://cyclingindustry.news/uk-to-make ... s-illegal/
What are you supposed to do with them once you've put a hole in one doing skids outside the chipshop hoping to impress that girl you liked?
Electric bicycles - an oxymoron if ever there was one
E-bikes are a real rabbit hole to go down. Its something new and exciting for the marketing department to froth about. but how do you justify there use when you are almost taken out by them when out on a forest ride and yoof charges by, clipping your bars?
'my mate Dave needs one because he's old and knackered' Well, dont keep making Dave do 50 mile bike rides because you and your mates can. Just because the advertising says you can ride further for longerererer - so what?
The whole point of the bicycle was that it was free and simple but now your tied to a manufacturer that will decide that this years model is rubbish and bring a new one out that shares nothing with the old.
Who has Sonus speakers? What about their decision to no longer support certain older models? Look what happened when they announced it! The same applies to e-bikes, it is expensive to create software with continuous updates - the day will come when you e-bike is no longer supported, what the heck are you supposed to do then? What happens when that internal battery fails and a replacement isnt available?
It all seems to be for the short term buck/ pound/ vietnamese dong.
A poorly maintained bicycle can be used for 15 years or more churning away - that is a crap business model. A well maintained bicycle will last decade upon decade baring serious accident or neglect - thats an awful business model
How do you go to the money lenders and justify that? 'Hi! I have a product that could potentially last for years without further input from the manufacturer and the end user can go just about anywhere to service it or even do it themselves' What? How do you make a profit for us to justify lending you the amount of money you'll need? How do we make any money from that?
Lets go back to those pesky cars - My 2004 Doblo used £3 lightbulbs that were easy to change, my 2001 Mondeo was similar, it was easy too as Ford made it so the headlights came off with a twist from a couple of clips.
Slide on to my neighbours' Range Rover - 'we've hit a pheasant, the headlight has stopped working' £450 please 'what?? cant I fix it?' Its a sealed unit, its £450 please...
Etc etc
So, that is why there are just a few big players. They need to turn over squillions of units to maintain a viable income. The old old saying in the cycling industry went something like 'to make a million you start with two million'.
Just my caffeine fueled lack of sleep ramblings.
There is a discernible move by manufacturers back to the wonder metal that is aluminium and its cheaperer for them and nice for the share holders
Cycling was always the greenest form of transport but its credentials were getting muddied by that awful black stuff and there is no real excuse to use it anymore. But, but! Its sooooo light! and really brings the trails alive! Ok but what the actual **** are you supposed to do with it when it fails?
And the next dirty secret is tyres; https://cyclingindustry.news/uk-to-make ... s-illegal/
What are you supposed to do with them once you've put a hole in one doing skids outside the chipshop hoping to impress that girl you liked?
Electric bicycles - an oxymoron if ever there was one
E-bikes are a real rabbit hole to go down. Its something new and exciting for the marketing department to froth about. but how do you justify there use when you are almost taken out by them when out on a forest ride and yoof charges by, clipping your bars?
'my mate Dave needs one because he's old and knackered' Well, dont keep making Dave do 50 mile bike rides because you and your mates can. Just because the advertising says you can ride further for longerererer - so what?
The whole point of the bicycle was that it was free and simple but now your tied to a manufacturer that will decide that this years model is rubbish and bring a new one out that shares nothing with the old.
Who has Sonus speakers? What about their decision to no longer support certain older models? Look what happened when they announced it! The same applies to e-bikes, it is expensive to create software with continuous updates - the day will come when you e-bike is no longer supported, what the heck are you supposed to do then? What happens when that internal battery fails and a replacement isnt available?
It all seems to be for the short term buck/ pound/ vietnamese dong.
A poorly maintained bicycle can be used for 15 years or more churning away - that is a crap business model. A well maintained bicycle will last decade upon decade baring serious accident or neglect - thats an awful business model
How do you go to the money lenders and justify that? 'Hi! I have a product that could potentially last for years without further input from the manufacturer and the end user can go just about anywhere to service it or even do it themselves' What? How do you make a profit for us to justify lending you the amount of money you'll need? How do we make any money from that?
Lets go back to those pesky cars - My 2004 Doblo used £3 lightbulbs that were easy to change, my 2001 Mondeo was similar, it was easy too as Ford made it so the headlights came off with a twist from a couple of clips.
Slide on to my neighbours' Range Rover - 'we've hit a pheasant, the headlight has stopped working' £450 please 'what?? cant I fix it?' Its a sealed unit, its £450 please...
Etc etc
So, that is why there are just a few big players. They need to turn over squillions of units to maintain a viable income. The old old saying in the cycling industry went something like 'to make a million you start with two million'.
Just my caffeine fueled lack of sleep ramblings.
TheAntsPants
Devout Dirtbag
Re:
Agree with everything you've said, but... E-bikes are putting people on bikes who would not otherwise ride. Even if it takes people off public transport and clogs up cycle lanes, it is still a plus for cycling and the environment imho, just for exposing more people to cycling and getting them off worse transport options.
How they can cost more than a motorbike, I really don't understand.
legrandefromage":vc39aawv said:
Agree with everything you've said, but... E-bikes are putting people on bikes who would not otherwise ride. Even if it takes people off public transport and clogs up cycle lanes, it is still a plus for cycling and the environment imho, just for exposing more people to cycling and getting them off worse transport options.
How they can cost more than a motorbike, I really don't understand.
Re:
The humble bike chain is now a mine field in some cases . Bought a pack of KMC missing links today for my KMC chain . Did not know there was a difference for some of these with regards KMC 10 speed ones . ie KMC Shimano and Sram have the same missing link and campag another. :x one is marked 10s and the other 10c which is for Campag chains only :!:
And neither did my LBS .Going back tomorrow to exchange .
8,9 10 ,11 and now 12 how many chain sizes did we really need .
How much real difference is there between a 7,8 and 9 speed chain. Again how much difference is there between 9 and 10 speed chains .
Off to listen to Fleetwood Mac.....
The humble bike chain is now a mine field in some cases . Bought a pack of KMC missing links today for my KMC chain . Did not know there was a difference for some of these with regards KMC 10 speed ones . ie KMC Shimano and Sram have the same missing link and campag another. :x one is marked 10s and the other 10c which is for Campag chains only :!:
And neither did my LBS .Going back tomorrow to exchange .
8,9 10 ,11 and now 12 how many chain sizes did we really need .
How much real difference is there between a 7,8 and 9 speed chain. Again how much difference is there between 9 and 10 speed chains .
Off to listen to Fleetwood Mac.....
Re: Re:
Agree with this. So road rear spacing for umpteen years was 126mm and then grew an astounding 2mm either side to 130mm, and now ...... hold your breath.....added an astounding 2.5mm either side for 135mm. Errrrr........like age old MTB.
It's moronic. It clearly demonstrated that cross compatibility was deliberately never on the agenda. A bit like a drip feed in the hope you will wake up from a coma and rush out and buy a new frame just for new hubs with the extra sprocket.
Try to cold set a carbon fibre frame which was / is the fashion during this remarkable evolution change.
Even back in 2002 at least some steel and Ti frame road builders saw it coming and built 132.5mm rear spacing. My MASI from 2012 is also 132.5mm rear spacing. And ironically, a Koga Miyata Randonneur I have from 1996 with 135mm rear spacing is suddenly "da shit" to put swanky new factory built 700c 135mm hub wheels on it.
It's a joke. A rear axle as grown by 9mm in what, +40 years with a wanted knock on effect to replace the whole bike. Twice. :facepalm:
PS: ... somebody more up-to-date with modern stuff will probably tell me it's gone up again by 2mm :roll:
bagpuss":350v0ibj said:
Agree with this. So road rear spacing for umpteen years was 126mm and then grew an astounding 2mm either side to 130mm, and now ...... hold your breath.....added an astounding 2.5mm either side for 135mm. Errrrr........like age old MTB.
It's moronic. It clearly demonstrated that cross compatibility was deliberately never on the agenda. A bit like a drip feed in the hope you will wake up from a coma and rush out and buy a new frame just for new hubs with the extra sprocket.
Try to cold set a carbon fibre frame which was / is the fashion during this remarkable evolution change.
Even back in 2002 at least some steel and Ti frame road builders saw it coming and built 132.5mm rear spacing. My MASI from 2012 is also 132.5mm rear spacing. And ironically, a Koga Miyata Randonneur I have from 1996 with 135mm rear spacing is suddenly "da shit" to put swanky new factory built 700c 135mm hub wheels on it.
It's a joke. A rear axle as grown by 9mm in what, +40 years with a wanted knock on effect to replace the whole bike. Twice. :facepalm:
PS: ... somebody more up-to-date with modern stuff will probably tell me it's gone up again by 2mm :roll:
Re: Re:
Haven't you heard? It's up to 160mm and we have 24 cog cassettes and all new non-backward compatible logarithmically-indexed mechs. 6T on the smallest sprocket so you can run a 29T chainring but axles must now be made of unobtanium alloy and chains are a grand a piece.
Wait, that may have been a nightmare caused by too much cheese before bedtime...
Woz":27tr8i24 said:
Haven't you heard? It's up to 160mm and we have 24 cog cassettes and all new non-backward compatible logarithmically-indexed mechs. 6T on the smallest sprocket so you can run a 29T chainring but axles must now be made of unobtanium alloy and chains are a grand a piece.
Wait, that may have been a nightmare caused by too much cheese before bedtime...
Another point about this is if we just look at road bikes...
Take a 'typical' high quality road racing bike from the early-mid 1990s which might be a frame in Reynolds 531 - 8 speed groupset with Ergopower/STI - Mavic Open Pro rims on groupset hubs.
If you don't race, this is a perfectly decent road bike to use today. In terms of aspects of road bikes that have been introduced over the past years since that bike was seen as the standard road racing bike, what has been a genuine step forward? The only thing I can think of that might well be seen as an improvement are wider tyres; myself I use Veloflex 25mm tyres, but we are only taking about 3mm wider; and regardless, I have some 22mm tyres in the garage hung up that I will be happy to fit back on the bike when the 25s wear out as they are really good tyres anyway!
Obviously if you are racing today, your road bike would be made of carbon fibre, with aero tubes, electronic gearshift and deep carbon rims; it will of course be lighter and much more efficient generally. So the point is innovation has only really had an effect on competition machines rather than a typical road bike as it is difficult to see what is wrong with the bike I mentioned above.
So I think it has got to the point where innovation has really no where to go for a standard road bike. It is as if the road components are a victim of their own success; they are now so good it is difficult to see really where they could be made better. The manufacturers certainly try hard to make out that their components are vastly better than before, but the truth is that they are just talking total bull. Take the front derailleur for example; looking at Dura-Ace or Campagnolo Record models, they are very light at around 100g, are very high quality that will last ages, and really, what is there to improve on it? The only issue I have ever had with a front mech is when they seize up, but that generally only happens to the cheaper ones.
In terms of marketing bulls**t, Campagnolo are brilliant at this; I remember reading up about the eleven speed cassettes when they were introduced, saying that the sprockets were more rigid than before (probably quoting a percentage figure of some sort). I mean really? Has anyone ever ridden a bike with a cassette and felt that the sprockets were flexing? How is this possible if the whole block is screwed down with a lockring? Seriously!
Speaking personally, my next bike will in all probability be a touring type of machine; this might well be a bike with disc brakes, purely because this will give me the option of a very wide tyre for clearance, and also the gears will in all likelihood be an internal system such as the Rohloff Speedhub - now that is absolutely a genuine step forward in bike design!
Take a 'typical' high quality road racing bike from the early-mid 1990s which might be a frame in Reynolds 531 - 8 speed groupset with Ergopower/STI - Mavic Open Pro rims on groupset hubs.
If you don't race, this is a perfectly decent road bike to use today. In terms of aspects of road bikes that have been introduced over the past years since that bike was seen as the standard road racing bike, what has been a genuine step forward? The only thing I can think of that might well be seen as an improvement are wider tyres; myself I use Veloflex 25mm tyres, but we are only taking about 3mm wider; and regardless, I have some 22mm tyres in the garage hung up that I will be happy to fit back on the bike when the 25s wear out as they are really good tyres anyway!
Obviously if you are racing today, your road bike would be made of carbon fibre, with aero tubes, electronic gearshift and deep carbon rims; it will of course be lighter and much more efficient generally. So the point is innovation has only really had an effect on competition machines rather than a typical road bike as it is difficult to see what is wrong with the bike I mentioned above.
So I think it has got to the point where innovation has really no where to go for a standard road bike. It is as if the road components are a victim of their own success; they are now so good it is difficult to see really where they could be made better. The manufacturers certainly try hard to make out that their components are vastly better than before, but the truth is that they are just talking total bull. Take the front derailleur for example; looking at Dura-Ace or Campagnolo Record models, they are very light at around 100g, are very high quality that will last ages, and really, what is there to improve on it? The only issue I have ever had with a front mech is when they seize up, but that generally only happens to the cheaper ones.
In terms of marketing bulls**t, Campagnolo are brilliant at this; I remember reading up about the eleven speed cassettes when they were introduced, saying that the sprockets were more rigid than before (probably quoting a percentage figure of some sort). I mean really? Has anyone ever ridden a bike with a cassette and felt that the sprockets were flexing? How is this possible if the whole block is screwed down with a lockring? Seriously!
Speaking personally, my next bike will in all probability be a touring type of machine; this might well be a bike with disc brakes, purely because this will give me the option of a very wide tyre for clearance, and also the gears will in all likelihood be an internal system such as the Rohloff Speedhub - now that is absolutely a genuine step forward in bike design!
Madness. Sheer madness. I just don't get it however hard I try to look at it objectively. I just see an Aldi cordless kitchen appliance in front of me :roll:
https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Derailleur-avan ... Sww2he9N3d
https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Derailleur-avan ... Sww2he9N3d
