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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:13 pm 
Retro Guru

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:07 pm
Posts: 1548
Location: Cotswolds
2 plate crown, lamp bracket boss and fork rake 2.5 inches or possibly more, all typical of 1949/50.
I ordered a new frame in 1951 with a 2 plate crown.

Keith


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:36 pm 
Retro Guru
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Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:52 am
Posts: 303
Location: Colchester, Essex
Thanks, doesn't sound like I number I can use. I have a similar issue with forks on my Monsoon. I have a pair to go on that look OK, but probably not 531 and come from a latter CB. Still better than no forks at all!


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:50 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:10 pm
Posts: 1047
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Holdsworth-P ... -TS21/4015


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:06 pm 
Dirt Disciple

Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:35 am
Posts: 10
CBguy wrote:
Wolber,

I believe frame 7331 is a 1973 WF Holdsworth, Putney Shop Italia model. Italias were often built by outside contract builders and often for shop stock. ( http://retroride.blogspot.com/2007/05/h ... _1672.html ) Yours may very well be original paint as has usual shop seat stay cap lining. Dave Scrimshaw and I have discussed this style of dating serial in the past at length as well as in other threads and it appears from his data that quite probably outside "Shop" contractors were, as a general rule, using a 2 digit dating code in early 70's where as Roy Thame's main buider Tommy Quick appears to be still using (in 1973) numbers prefixed by 69 and placed along BB edge. Two possible outside builders described by Kilgariff are well respected builders for the "trade" Charlie Roberts and Alec Bird.

If you have an Excel reader and search Dave's data you will see besides factory builds, examples of other shop builds for this period, as well as graphs and prediction table. "Shop" builds are much less common.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... TNKZkN4TmM

Doug


Wileyone wrote:
torqueless wrote:
I respectfully disagree with Doug on this one.

I'm not so sure wolber's frame is a shop model- I'd expect at least an allen key binder bolt housing if it was?

The only thing I can see preventing that frame from being a factory Super Mistral is the lack of chrome, which is not enough to convince me it's not a Super Mistral..


I was wondering the same thing. At one time did the shop change from using screws for the Headbadge? This one seem to be held on with rivets.

Hi all,
I would be interested to know for sure if this is a shop built italia from the number or a factory built mistral with upgraded fork or super mistral without the chrome

Wolber


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:19 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:10 pm
Posts: 1047
You'll never be sure. You're relatively lucky- at least you can put a 'Holdsworth' on your down tube with a clear conscience. My own '75 mystery frame is another thing entirely. It is either a Shorter, a Stan Pike, a stock shop Holdsworth, or a Ken Ryall built either by Holdsworth, Jack Hearne, or Stan Pike.... or someone else. I no longer care. It is the only frame I've ever really needed. I can't be cavalier with decals, so f*ck 'em.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:45 am 
Devout Dirtbag

Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:32 pm
Posts: 143
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Wolber,

Your frame #7331 does resemble a factory Super Mistral, but not quite. http://s1324.photobucket.com/user/bruce ... Holdsworth

7331 does not have the Super Mistral style bushing hidden in rear brake bridge hole but rather a tube projecting externally. The Super Mistral rear brake bridge also had diamond reinforced shoulder fillets which are absent on yours.

What might really cinch frame 7331 as fitting the Italia catalogue description is if you measure the rear triangle. The Italia generally had closer clearances than the Mistral and the distance from centre of BB to centre of rear dropouts was 17 " as opposed to Mistral which was more relaxed and had a 17.5" rear triangle. However I would think if an Italia was built more as a "tourer" rather than racing, conceivably it would have more relaxed measurements.

To make one's own mind up about frame #7331 being a WF Holdworth Shop build one really needs to download Dave Scrimshaw's Excel data and diligently study the details with references of the 50 or shop frames from 1965 to 1975 which includes approximately 8 frame serials deduced to be from outside contractors during the first half of 70's - the period in which your frame lies. As stated previously, these Shop frames appear to all belong to a different numbering system than what was used by Holdsworthy factory.

One can see from the data that during the 70's shop frames did not always have the integral seat post clamps, especially more economical shop builds and often in frames built by outside contractors. Head badge rivets are more difficult to comment on from data as possibly builder dependent and a particular frame could have been repainted at some point, although yours does look like original typical shop seat stay cap lining.

Hope this helps.

See: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... TNKZkN4TmM

Doug


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:59 pm 
Dirt Disciple

Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:35 am
Posts: 10
Doug

Just measured and its 17 inches, so shop built italia looks good. I want to rebuild using campagnolo from that era and I think this now justifies the cost.
Thank you

Wolber


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:30 pm 
Dirt Disciple

Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:23 pm
Posts: 18
Good evening all,

Just acquired this frame set yesterday so looking for some help in identifying it.

It seems to have some similarities to the discussion around wobler's flamboyant green and white frame.

The serial number on the bottom bracket is 74770. It is stamped into the front of the BB just to left of centre on the drive side. The punches are quite fine.

The rear stays are 5/8" at the rear bridge joint and at the bottom of the wrap over.

Unlike wobler's the lugs are pierced.

The brazed fittings are button under down tube, cable guide for rear derallieur and single fitting for rear cable outer, single cable guide on down tube for cable outer to front derallieur.

The drop-outs are Campag.

Head badge looks undisturbed and no sign of any lug lining.

The forks have the sloping crown but I can't yet get them out due to sieved stem. It twists with som leverage but will not move in or out!!!

Any assistance in identifying greatly appreciated.

Having some problem loading pics so will try to reduce size!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:56 pm 
Newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:19 am
Posts: 6
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:58 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:19 am
Posts: 6
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