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 Post subject: Re: Wheel building guide
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:22 pm 
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When there is no tension on the spokes just add in bulk that goes for low tension. Adding half a turn each time just takes more time without doing anything favourable for the wheel. Add tension in smaller increments as the tension builds that is important as big changes in tension can cause wind up and twisting spokes alot is not good. At low tension this is not a risk and there should be no wind up. Rims are very resilient and you will not bend one building a wheel, really you won't ever unless you stand on a built wheel and jump on it.

When grasping pairs of spokes a rim is pulled badly out of shape and then when you let go its returns to be straight again. This shows how resilient they are.


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 Post subject: Re: Wheel building guide
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:23 am 
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Great guide – have been looking forward to seeing this following on from the discussion on Misteroo's wheel build thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Wheel building guide
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:34 am 
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I have more too add too. When I get time I will post hub and rim ERD's but most of what I have is for road stuff (modern dare I say it) but it would be nice to have a format that others can add too for rim ERD's and hub dimesnions so folk can make some more informed decision about picking components that will be right for there needs. It would not be a replacement for measuring yourself but certain hubs lend themselves to certain rims and visa versa.


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 Post subject: Re: Wheel building guide
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:11 am 
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bm0p700f wrote:
I have more too add too. When I get time I will post hub and rim ERD's but most of what I have is for road stuff (modern dare I say it) but it would be nice to have a format that others can add too for rim ERD's and hub dimesnions so folk can make some more informed decision about picking components that will be right for there needs. It would not be a replacement for measuring yourself but certain hubs lend themselves to certain rims and visa versa.


Sounds good.

Had a look inside my old Parallax hubs – I think these have seen better days, after over 20 yrs use, so these on the old wheels are going to form a trailer for allotment trips.

In your opinion, what criteria decides hub/rim combinations? I'm considering current XM317s & XT hubs for the new build, but can't decide on plain gauge or DB spokes. A while back in my research when I was once considering buying custom built wheels, I read that Spa Cycles on their rear wheels use a combination of DB spokes with plain gauge spokes on the drive side – is this necessary?


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 Post subject: Re: Wheel building guide
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:30 am 
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bm0p700f wrote:
I have more too add too. When I get time I will post hub and rim ERD's but most of what I have is for road stuff (modern dare I say it) but it would be nice to have a format that others can add too for rim ERD's and hub dimesnions so folk can make some more informed decision about picking components that will be right for there needs. It would not be a replacement for measuring yourself but certain hubs lend themselves to certain rims and visa versa.


Thanks for a really informative thread. I am a wheelbuilding novice and have built a few wheels successfully but am always looking out for more info particularly spoke length calculations, ERDs and hub dimensions.

Theres a load of info on Reluctant's post here:

viewtopic.php?p=969399&highlight=#969399

Thanks again.


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 Post subject: Re: Wheel building guide
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:56 am 
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My have strong opinions about plain guage spokes. They are cheaper and that is the only reason to use but given the low cost of Sapim Race what is the posint. If you need the stiffness of a 2.0mm spoke you will also need the fatigue resiatnce (to to the load the wheels must be carrying) of a 2.3mm elbow e.g a Sapim strong spoke.

So use DB 2.0mm/1.8mm/2.0mm spokes they are cheap and robust and will give good stiffness on the XM317/XT M737 parrallax hub combo. You can use the thinner sapim Laser (2.0/1.5/2.0 on the front with no issue and depending on your weight Sapim Lasers on NDS rear or maybe NDS/DS rear. It will also depend on the kind of rinding you are doing.

My wife MTB wheels are M563/M565 hubs on XM317 rims 32H and Spaim Laser spoke front/NDS rear Race DS rear. This bike is used mostly for winter commuting in the snow and ice and it works she is 85-90kg (she does not rear this site). In am 82kg and and use Laser spoke all the time for my road and MTB wheels see the wheels I built above. The one in this thread are very stiff.

The Shimano series rim brake hubs give excellent bracing angles so thinner gauage spokes work quite well.

For most road wheels I use Laser spokes front and NDS rear and Race DS rear unless the rider is quite heavy then Race spokes all round. If there is an extra load on the rear wheel then Strong spokes come out for the DS rear. If the wheels are for a heavily loaded touring bike the Strong single butted 2.0/2.3mm will get used all over the rear wheel.

For MTB wheel DB 2.0/1.8/2.0 is what I normally use unless they are race day wheels, wheels for ligther riders, wheels intended mostly for road use in which case Laser spokes can be used sucessfully.

I find plain guage spokes completely unnessecary for most people. They make wheels cheaper and heavier than it need be that's it.


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 Post subject: Re: Wheel building guide
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:46 pm 
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bm0p700f wrote:
My have strong opinions about plain guage spokes. They are cheaper and that is the only reason to use but given the low cost of Sapim Race what is the posint. If you need the stiffness of a 2.0mm spoke you will also need the fatigue resiatnce (to to the load the wheels must be carrying) of a 2.3mm elbow e.g a Sapim strong spoke.

So use DB 2.0mm/1.8mm/2.0mm spokes they are cheap and robust and will give good stiffness on the XM317/XT M737 parrallax hub combo. You can use the thinner sapim Laser (2.0/1.5/2.0 on the front with no issue and depending on your weight Sapim Lasers on NDS rear or maybe NDS/DS rear. It will also depend on the kind of rinding you are doing.

My wife MTB wheels are M563/M565 hubs on XM317 rims 32H and Spaim Laser spoke front/NDS rear Race DS rear. This bike is used mostly for winter commuting in the snow and ice and it works she is 85-90kg (she does not rear this site). In am 82kg and and use Laser spoke all the time for my road and MTB wheels see the wheels I built above. The one in this thread are very stiff.

The Shimano series rim brake hubs give excellent bracing angles so thinner gauage spokes work quite well.

For most road wheels I use Laser spokes front and NDS rear and Race DS rear unless the rider is quite heavy then Race spokes all round. If there is an extra load on the rear wheel then Strong spokes come out for the DS rear. If the wheels are for a heavily loaded touring bike the Strong single butted 2.0/2.3mm will get used all over the rear wheel.

For MTB wheel DB 2.0/1.8/2.0 is what I normally use unless they are race day wheels, wheels for ligther riders, wheels intended mostly for road use in which case Laser spokes can be used sucessfully.

I find plain guage spokes completely unnessecary for most people. They make wheels cheaper and heavier than it need be that's it.


I'd planned to use DB 2.0/1.8/2.0 stainless spokes. Was just curious as to why one place would use 2 different gauges on the same wheel. Although I do like a bargain, quality and performance criteria are always the main consideration rather than cost – somethings you just don't want to skimp on.


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 Post subject: Re: Wheel building guide
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:13 pm 
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The main reason for a thicker gauge on the DS is beacuse the DS spoke is under a higher load than the NDS so a the same thick spoke on the NDS stretche less so in theory it is capable of loosing tension under vertical loads a bit easier. I do it bit on road wheels but only with light rims (sub 450g) and powerful riders. On MTB wheels I rarely bother as they are stiff anyway in 26" size no matter what you do.

To be honest you can use the same gauge both side sucessfully. Just stik to the 2.0/1.8mm/2.0mm spokes lowish cost light enough and reliable.


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 Post subject: Re: Wheel building guide
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:41 pm 
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whats your thoughts on boiled linseed oil or spoke prep to stop wind up and tension loss?


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 Post subject: Re: Wheel building guide
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:20 pm 
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I use 3n1 oil, it is cheap it lubricates the threads so that wind up is rarly an issue. If a wheel is tensioned properly i.e 900N on the front and 1200N DS rear or the max tension limit of the rim (most rims can take 1200N) then spokes loosing tension by winding is never a problem. Spoke loose tension because you have no grasps pair of spokes enough or hard enough and streched them or the tension is too low. The only time were I use threadlock/nipple freeze is on rear wheels where the NDS is laced radialy (there is only one wheelset I do like that) and if a 2:1 lacing pattern is used you do not even need thread lock.

Linsead oil works but I see no point as 3n1 oil does the job and is cheaper. If you do your job properly when building wheels should never loose tension or nipples should never unwind. Wheels should never need truing really either. All the wheels I have built for my self have not gone out of true (I can't actually speak for the hundreds of wheels I have for other people as I do not stalk them but no one has said anything). The wheels I have had built for me have gone out of true/broken spokes after far less miles.

So do not bother with an expensive prep in my view and do not bother with thread lock either, it is a solution to a problem that should not occur.

Spokes only wind up if there is insufficent lubricant on the threads or the nipple thread or spoke thread is damaged. I do find somtimes that some nipple go tight on the spokes. The nipples I throw away and use a new one which is why now when sending spokes I send a couple of extra nipples just in case. Black brass nipples from sapim seem more prone to this for some reason hence I have spotted using them. Being selective with you nipples reduces wind even further - is that rude?

Alloy nipples are very good to use can you get no wind up with them.


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