Retrobike Forum Index

It is currently Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:20 am

* Login   * Register * Search  * FAQ



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:23 pm 
Retro Guru
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:26 am
Posts: 710
Location: Kuala Lumpur
groovyblueshed wrote:
I've been wondering about buying my own bits and doing this myself for a long time – but haven't plucked up the courage yet. How did you find the process and how long did it take you?


Get Roger Musson's wheel building book - it's superb! http://www.wheelpro.co.uk
I just built my very first wheel today using new parts (Hope hub, DTSwiss Comp spokes, Mavic 317rim). Did a couple of test assemblies to practice and make sure spokes were correct length etc and because i was expecting it to be very difficult. To my surprise i found it quite straight forward and not particularly difficult so the 'final' build went smoothly. Got to follow the correct assembly sequence though or you're in trouble and follow all Roger Musson's build tips. I thought i'd need a tension meter but Roger (a solid expert) advised using sound (pluck the spoke) to even up the tensions and use a factory made reference wheel to compare and judge the overall tension by 'feeling' the tension in the spokes by gentle bending. Aparently there is a reasonable range of what constitutes 'correct tension' so getting an exact tension of a certain value is not as important as the evenness of the tensions. Tighter spokes make stronger wheels though, according to Roger. I thought that seemed a bit unprofessional and was nervous about not having a tension meter but it really works and is not difficult. Like most things, there are plenty of different opinions out there, but i can recommend Roger's book as it has very comprehensive content. I realize now that wheel building is not a 'black art' to be afraid of - it's quite easy so give it a try! Becoming a genuinely GOOD wheelbuilder however might take more practice :wink:
Also, while a wheel building stand is more professional, i was planning to just use my bike frame, then just by chance i came across a two year old magazine which decribed doing exactly that, so that gave me the confidence to just go for it. It worked fine..


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 6:00 pm 
Retrobike Sponsor
Retrobike Sponsor
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 22, 2010 10:33 pm
Posts: 2192
Location: Suffolk
The pitch method for spoke tension is not very accurate and it does depend on you ear. Not everyones sense of pitch is good and it will be difficult/impossible to know exactly what tension you have or get the tension variability down to 100N or less (unless you are some kind of god). With a good tension gauge you will know exactly what tension you are using which is important for some rims with low tension limits and you will be able to get tension variation to less than 100N or less than 10% (5% variation from the mean is possible and better). Tension variation on the NDS rear needs to kept to absolute minimum as those spoke run less tension.
The cheap Park TM-1 over reads though by about 10% but it picks up tension variation well enough.

Also there are some factory wheels built to low tension (that why the spoke nipples unwind) and some built to higher tensions. So a factory wheels as a guide is not a good one.

Front spoke tensions should be in the 900-1000N range for a reliable wheel. For the rear the DS tension should be 1200N (less if the there is a max tension limit on the rim). NDS rear tension will be what ever it has to be to get the rim centered.

Higher spoke tension do not make a stronger wheel as stronger is kind of meaninless. What higher tensions do is reduce the risk of a spokes going slack under high side/radial loads as higher loads are needed to detension spokes. It has nothing to do with strength. Also increasing tension does not increase wheel stiffness.

These are not my personal opinons on the matter either. This is established good practice. While Roger Moulsons book is a decent guide and people will build reliable wheels with it but relying on feel can be a problem as feel is subjective and can vary with mood.

I am not belittling your efforts you have built a wheel and that is brilliant, get a spoke tension gauge and measure the tension on each spoke and let us know how even they are. You maybe a wheel building god or there may be some improvements that can be made.

Building wheels is easy can it can be done without expensive tools. The tools just make the process quicker for those who do it day in day out.

What I consider essential to buy is a spoke key and tension gauge. A truing stand (frame) and dishing tool are easily made up see pic in above post which is fine for doing the odd wheel now and again.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 6:13 pm 
Gold Trader
Gold Trader
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:40 am
Posts: 3000
Any recommendations for tension gauges? Is the park tm-1 the only one that is a reasonable price, or does it have any competition? Any instructions for a homemade version?

I'm at the point where I need one, but they all (apart from the tm-1) cost loads!

Good work on the wheel too!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 6:53 pm 
Retrobike Sponsor
Retrobike Sponsor
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 22, 2010 10:33 pm
Posts: 2192
Location: Suffolk
I mis stated one fact The Park TM-1 under reads by 10% not over reads. The Park TM-1 Foz is the only tension guage that is suitable fot the DIY wheel builder as the other are too expensive. It may underead so just adjust accordingly. It will give you a good enough relative tension measurement but sometimes it can be a bit sticky so three measurement of a spoke are recomended to be sure you are getting the "real" value.

The Sapim gauge I have found is hard to buy (I had to wait months), expensive and the readings it gives flucuate a bit, still it is useful for CX-rays and strong spokes.

The DT Swiss Analg Tensio is the best of the three I have bought. Accurate spoke tensions although not with Sapim CX-rays as it's calibration chart is for DT Swiss spokes (it works for Sapim Lasers and Race spokes as they are practically the same as rev's and Comp's). It is also the most expensive one I have with a retail price of £400 or so.

I have not bought Josh Brandt's wheel fanatik yet beacuse I can't afford it and the DT Swiss guage does the job so well.

A homemade version would be possible but you would have to calibrate it. Anything is possible if you have a lathe.

For the £60 the TM-1 cost just buy that it will be better than anyhting a mere mortal could make at home.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:15 pm 
Retro Guru
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:08 pm
Posts: 1255
Location: I know where the stash is – the secret's safe with me. The flying squad will never find us...
RadNomad wrote:
groovyblueshed wrote:
I've been wondering about buying my own bits and doing this myself for a long time – but haven't plucked up the courage yet. How did you find the process and how long did it take you?


Get Roger Musson's wheel building book - it's superb! http://www.wheelpro.co.uk
I just built my very first wheel today using new parts (Hope hub, DTSwiss Comp spokes, Mavic 317rim). Did a couple of test assemblies to practice and make sure spokes were correct length etc and because i was expecting it to be very difficult. To my surprise i found it quite straight forward and not particularly difficult so the 'final' build went smoothly. Got to follow the correct assembly sequence though or you're in trouble and follow all Roger Musson's build tips. I thought i'd need a tension meter but Roger (a solid expert) advised using sound (pluck the spoke) to even up the tensions and use a factory made reference wheel to compare and judge the overall tension by 'feeling' the tension in the spokes by gentle bending. Aparently there is a reasonable range of what constitutes 'correct tension' so getting an exact tension of a certain value is not as important as the evenness of the tensions. Tighter spokes make stronger wheels though, according to Roger. I thought that seemed a bit unprofessional and was nervous about not having a tension meter but it really works and is not difficult. Like most things, there are plenty of different opinions out there, but i can recommend Roger's book as it has very comprehensive content. I realize now that wheel building is not a 'black art' to be afraid of - it's quite easy so give it a try! Becoming a genuinely GOOD wheelbuilder however might take more practice :wink:
Also, while a wheel building stand is more professional, i was planning to just use my bike frame, then just by chance i came across a two year old magazine which decribed doing exactly that, so that gave me the confidence to just go for it. It worked fine..



Thanks RadNomad. Love the photo!

I've looked at Wheelpro a few times now, amongst many many other sites, – I may well actually get round to buying the book come pay day. I’ve spent the last 6 months at least, reading, viewing and considering a lot of information, guidance and opinions that are out there.

With more people like yourself posting about self-built wheels, I’m coming to the conclusion that although it can be taken to a high fine art for ‘anal’ well-honed skills, wheel building is actually more straight forward and a lot simpler than some make it out be. I do feel that there are some who try to perpetuate the idea that it’s a complex frightening “black art”, not to be attempted by mere mortals.

I’ll probably start with the front first by copying the original. I’ll use the forks as a jig. I guess calculating correct spoke length is tricky. I guess attention to detail and keeping track is about as complicated as it gets. Did you apply anything to the spoke threads before fixing the nips?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:35 pm 
Retrobike Sponsor
Retrobike Sponsor
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 22, 2010 10:33 pm
Posts: 2192
Location: Suffolk
It is simple really simple. Calculating the correct spoc lengths is not tricky. Use a vernier to meaure up the hub and two spokes cut to 200mm with nipples screwed on to meaure the ERD. Plug those doemensions into spocalc and round down. Simple really simple. Do not rust online date regarding ERD and even published hub dimension can sometimes be worng (but rarely).

Using the forks is fine a a jig as I said the only tools you need to buy are spoke tool and to get even tension without guessing you way there is a Park TM-1 for £60. If you build more than one pair of wheel that tension guage will pay it self back.

3in1 oil is all you need to apply to the spoke threads. Always apply some lub or wind up will be a problem.

Also I have always said there is no black art to wheel building it all about being methodical and measuring.

RadNomad method of controlling radial runout on frame jig is really good. If you are not going to buy a truing jig this is the best way I have seen of controlling run out.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:11 pm 
Retro Guru
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:26 am
Posts: 710
Location: Kuala Lumpur
groovyblueshed wrote:
Thanks RadNomad. Love the photo!
I’ll probably start with the front first by copying the original. I’ll use the forks as a jig. I guess calculating correct spoke length is tricky. I guess attention to detail and keeping track is about as complicated as it gets. Did you apply anything to the spoke threads before fixing the nips?


Can you build good wheels with a tension meter? I would expect yes. Can you build good wheels without a tension meter? Well i'm no expert but from what i've read, yes. For sure it would be nice to have a tension meter - no question. I can say though that having read very comprehensive instructions from someone who clearly knows what he's writing about, this gave me the confidence to have a go without one. I would not brush aside proven competence. This guy is sought after by road and mountain customers for his expertise and ability to build wheels which are proven reliable in real world situations (road, race, mountain, touring...). The human ear is an extremely sensitive instrument and i would not be so fast in disregarding sound as a method of coming very close to uniform tensions (one might suggest maybe even as close as tension meters which give three different readings! :mrgreen: ). Buy a meter if you don't want to play 'god' or think the sound method is not professional - it's up to you! If your reference wheel is in good condition, of similar design and spoke gauge/count and has already given you/someone several years of proven good service then it will be a very useful reference (but only use a reference wheel for feeling overall tension, not for sound comparisons to your new wheel - the sound pitch will differ due to materials, spoke gauge etc). Being a technically trained person i am not going to argue against the valuable assistance of a tension meter. What i would say though is to keep an open mind about the various methods (no single info source on a topic like this is likely to be fully right or fully wrong) and just simply have a go. You will learn so much by assembling your first wheel - i did! I'd caution against just diving in blind though - definately follow a guide/stepwise instruction. A wheel is a safety component so fools needn't try. Take your time, concentrate, avoid being disturbed if possible and have a go. The actual assembly is just a simple jigsaw puzzle (easy with a guide), it's only the tensioning part where some skill, patience and mechanical sympathy are needed but it's not half as difficult as you might imagine. If you are not reckless you WILL succeed!
GBS, answering your questions above, i suggest bracing your fork in the straight ahead position with a strap (see my photo) otherwise it will be really difficult with the steering moving around. Or remove the fork and clamp in a vice. bm0p700f is spot on with suggesting to measure your parts to calculate actual needed spoke length as printed specs can differ and a 1 or 2mm variation can determine whether a spoke is useable or not. Yes, oil the spoke threads, but also oil or lightly grease the flange of the nipple where it sits in the rim as you need the nipple to rotate smoothly when under load. Flag the spokes with tape (see photo) so you can see whether a rotating nipple is applying tension or merely twisting the spoke.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:10 pm 
Retro Guru
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:25 pm
Posts: 1787
Location: It's not easy being a dolphin.
Interesting good thread, but:
"Higher spoke tension do not make a stronger wheel as stronger is kind of meaninless. What higher tensions do is reduce the risk of a spokes going slack under high side/radial loads as higher loads are needed to detension spokes. It has nothing to do with strength. Also increasing tension does not increase wheel stiffness."

I acquired some 1996-ish Mavic Classics Pro (700c road, made famous in Paris Roubaix etc) which have straight pull spokes. They have a reputation for a strong wheel and suitable for CX. With hardly any use at all over almost 20 years, the rear wheel was simply sloppy to the point of rubbing on the break blocks albeit still totally true. Well I gave each spoke at least a full turn extra to get the tension up. Then over the course of three rides constantly tweaked the wheel for trueness by only a quarter to eight of a turn more.

The result is a very stiff wheel, no rubbing on brake blocks and is taking up some serious abuse and holding up very well. Obviously there is a range / sweet spot of tension, but my own experience more tension than less produces a stiffer more responsive wheel.

EDIT: I too have used the frame as a jig; Metal engineers ruler across the stays / fork held by two plastic clamps and one plastic cloths peg. Just keep tightening the distances until it's good enough. No spoke tension gizmo. Obviously DT Swiss are jealous.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:18 pm 
Retrobike Sponsor
Retrobike Sponsor
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 22, 2010 10:33 pm
Posts: 2192
Location: Suffolk
You are confusing two things Woz. Tension cannot and will not improve wheel stiffness. Physics say's it can't and test have demonstrated that. Look up Josh brandt's test for example. What you have observed woz is what happens on low tension builds. Torque applied causes wheel flex. Any flex to the left can cause the NDS spoke to de tension upon which a sudden drop in lateral wheel stiffness is observed. In such case brake rubbing is experienced and spokes nipples unwind and the wheel goes out of true. It is a common problem on low tension builds. Raising the tension therefore increased the value of the side load or the torque that can be applied before the NDS spokes go slack thus the wheel becomes stable under higher side load/torque conditions than it did previously.

Spoke tension not increase wheel stiffness it does however delay the point at which catastrophic loss in wheel stiffness occurs under side loading conditions.

So long as there is tension on the spokes, increasing the tension will not change anything. Wheel stiffness is mathematically governed by rim stiffness, spokes stiffness and spoke bracing angle. Those are the only major factors and wheels can be modeled with those factors. This is why I need to write this article for RB to dispell allot of these misconceptions.

Test results and further reading, it not just me you know who is saying this.
http://sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/index.htm
http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-23159755.html
I hope that clears that up.

Also good wheels can be built without a tension gauge with a good ear however the possibility of very good builds are possible with tension gauge. The ear is very sensitive but this method does require alot of practice to refine also many good wheel builder not just me swear by using a tension gauge - it does not mean we are inferior wheel builders we just prefer measuring rather than trusting our ear. Also I want to know what tension I am using rather than referencing what I think is a good wheel. Again I reiterate front wheels should be 900-1000N, most rims can be tensioned to 1200N on the DS rear. How would you know what that is unless you have measured it? also spoke gauge affects the tone and if you are like me and uses various types of spokes depending of the requirements of the build the ear method becomes a faff I cannot be bothered with it. Simpler, easier and more reliable to use a gauge.

Judging by the repsonses here I am not sure those advocating the ear method have tried using a spoke tension gauge. If not try it and make up your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:41 pm 
Retro Guru
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:25 pm
Posts: 1787
Location: It's not easy being a dolphin.
Thanks for the detailed reply, although I'm a bit tired at the moment to absorb all that and will appreciate your future myth busting thread.

"Spoke tension not increase wheel stiffness it does however delay the point at which catastrophic loss in wheel stiffness occurs under side loading conditions."

That sounds well and good to me to sleep easy. Just to mention the front wheel thankfully didn't "require" any adjustments which was a god send as the straight pull spokes are a real sod to work with; pipe grips, pliers, masking tape flags and all. What did surprise me though was how an essentially NOS / MINT condition wheel of a reputed high caliber could just be so laterally flexy and I simply can't see how the nipples would have loosened off - steel spoke stretch perhaps?


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: mnsport, Mugoftea, stuey and 52 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

About Us

Follow Retrobike

Other cool stuff

All content © 2005-2015 Retrobike unless otherwise stated.
Cookies Policy.
bikedeals - the best bike deals in one place
FatCOGS - Fat Chance Owner's Group

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group