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 Post subject: Re: Clipless merits
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:00 am 
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mattr wrote:
JamesM wrote:
Haven't you ever wondered how these roadies buzz along at 25mph, I did!!!
Practice, training, drafting, more practice. For 95% or more of road riding clipless makes virtually no difference to power output. For the last few hundred metres of a sprint or acceleration on a mountain, it helps. A bit.

Helps keep your feet in place though.

And if you are actually *properly* pedalling in circles for any length of time (more than a few miles), you should get your entry in for the ToB. ;)

FWIW the weakest link for a trained road cyclist is the cardiovascular system, the loads applied through the pedals aren't usually much more than you'd apply walking up the stairs. So you'd be better off training your lungs than your legs.


I do alot of distance and speed running so my cardio system is good.

I disagree that clipless makes no difference. If you are using more muscles then you are bound to be able to generate more power. As you said though you need the cardio system to be able to support this. If you havent got it then maybe it doesn't make a difference as your cardio system can't supply the oxygen to max out any one group of muscles.

When I run fast I naturally breath heavily, but when I push hard on the pedals my legs seem to run out of strength before my breathing becomes excessive. If I then switch to pedaling in circles I can go faster and only then do I need to breath hard. I'm not saying I can ride like this all day but I can maintain it for quite some time. Running has trained me to maintain high effort levels for several hours.


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 Post subject: Re: Clipless merits
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:40 am 
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JamesM wrote:
mattr wrote:
JamesM wrote:
Haven't you ever wondered how these roadies buzz along at 25mph, I did!!!
Practice, training, drafting, more practice. For 95% or more of road riding clipless makes virtually no difference to power output. For the last few hundred metres of a sprint or acceleration on a mountain, it helps. A bit.

Helps keep your feet in place though.

And if you are actually *properly* pedalling in circles for any length of time (more than a few miles), you should get your entry in for the ToB. ;)

FWIW the weakest link for a trained road cyclist is the cardiovascular system, the loads applied through the pedals aren't usually much more than you'd apply walking up the stairs. So you'd be better off training your lungs than your legs.


I do alot of distance and speed running so my cardio system is good.


That's not quite what was said - for cycling, the vast majority of the time spent in the saddle, it's the cardiovascular system that is the weak link, not leg power.

That's not to say that cyclists don't do any work for leg power - they do - depending on discipline.

But look at all the drug taking that came out of the recent revelations - yes, AAS / testosterone (and probably others) were used - but given at least what had been written, that was more about recovery, as opposed to enhancing power / strength / development. There were a variety of other drugs used for various purposes, but the most prevalent and seemingly of most significance? EPO.

Now what's that telling you.

JamesM wrote:
I disagree that clipless makes no difference. If you are using more muscles then you are bound to be able to generate more power.


Not necessarily - depends on whether you're robbing Peter to pay Paul. By a long way, leg power is focused around pushing - in all the methods and cross training used to develop leg power. That's not to say the hamstrings play no role - that would be bogus, but the prime movers are the quads.

And you miss what was being written above - most of the time in the saddle, what's required isn't pure leg power, but cadence and cardiovascular performance.

The odd burst of speed, or hill climbs - at times - maybe leg power is of issue - or for sprints. But otherwise, it's about how quickly you can turn those pedals, as opposed to how hard - short sprints in the velodrome are different from most of the cycling that most cyclists do.

JamesM wrote:
As you said though you need the cardio system to be able to support this. If you havent got it then maybe it doesn't make a difference as your cardio system can't supply the oxygen to max out any one group of muscles.

When I run fast I naturally breath heavily, but when I push hard on the pedals my legs seem to run out of strength before my breathing becomes excessive. If I then switch to pedaling in circles I can go faster and only then do I need to breath hard. I'm not saying I can ride like this all day but I can maintain it for quite some time. Running has trained me to maintain high effort levels for several hours.


There are times when pushing hard matters in cycling - but it is not sustained for anything like as long as the demands on the cardio system.

And to all intents and purposes, toe-clips can provide probably just as much assistance in foot position, without being quite as restrictive, and for those convinced that being able to pull up on the pedals is significant - you can still do that - and even have more play and freedom to remove your foot. Tightening the straps is about entry / exit - the height and tightness beyond the strap area is less affected by the strap tightness.


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 Post subject: Re: Clipless merits
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:34 pm 
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So explain to me why I can sustain higher speeds and higher average heart rates by pedaling in circles. Is it placebo maybe?

Also why can do I achieve higher average heart rates when running than when working equally as hard on a bike?


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 Post subject: Re: Clipless merits
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:48 pm 
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JamesM wrote:
So explain to me why I can sustain higher speeds and higher average heart rates by pedaling in circles. Is it placebo maybe?
You've increased your pace and decreased your efficiency. Just training so you can push 5% harder would be more beneficial, and more efficient (probably a smaller heart rate increase). Pedaling FASTER would be the best way to do it. (But you still need to be able to press on)
JamesM wrote:
Also why can do I achieve higher average heart rates when running than when working equally as hard on a bike?
Heart rates when running are irrelevant when it comes to cycling. You will probably find you have different MHRs for most sports. As you utilise different muscle groups in different ways.


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 Post subject: Re: Clipless merits
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:49 pm 
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JamesM wrote:
Also why can do I achieve higher average heart rates when running than when working equally as hard on a bike?


Just checked my Garmin data:

Half marathon, 1 hour 32 minutes, average heart rate 178. Sprint finish resulted in a max heart rate of 187.

40km TT, 1 hour 10 minutes, average heart rate 167. Sprint finish resulted in a max heart rate of 177.

Marathon, 3 hours 36 minutes, average heart rate 162. Sprint finish :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Clipless merits
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:06 pm 
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mattr wrote:
JamesM wrote:
Also why can do I achieve higher average heart rates when running than when working equally as hard on a bike?
Heart rates when running are irrelevant when it comes to cycling. You will probably find you have different MHRs for most sports. As you utilise different muscle groups in different ways.


Pedaling in circles uses different muscle groups too so I think it is relevant.

Why do I have seemingly have 10 bpm spare capacity in my cardio system when I'm on the bike compared with with running. Same effort level, same amount of time.


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 Post subject: Re: Clipless merits
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:13 pm 
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You aren't flailing your arms about, you aren't supporting your own body weight = lower MHR and lower threshold.


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 Post subject: Re: Clipless merits
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:16 pm 
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My refusal to use SPDs is obviously hampering my climbing ability.

I can understand why people use them, but I'm happy with just grippy flat pedals and grippy soled shoes.

Apart from my aversion to being attached to the bike, I also like the ease of slightly adjusting your foot position, to allow for injuries, to help build strength in tendons/ligaments/muscles and to increase comfort over longer rides.

If the only reason for me to use them was to gain a little extra speed that wouldn't be enough to tempt me, as I'm so inefficient in other respects that gains would be a lot easier to find elsewhere, without attaching myself to the bike (better bike setup, better riding technique etc.) - and I'm not convince that being able to go a little bit quicker would add that much to my enjoyment.


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 Post subject: Re: Clipless merits
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:17 pm 
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JamesM wrote:
mattr wrote:
JamesM wrote:
Also why can do I achieve higher average heart rates when running than when working equally as hard on a bike?
Heart rates when running are irrelevant when it comes to cycling. You will probably find you have different MHRs for most sports. As you utilise different muscle groups in different ways.


Pedaling in circles uses different muscle groups too so I think it is relevant.

Why do I have seemingly have 10 bpm spare capacity in my cardio system when I'm on the bike compared with with running. Same effort level, same amount of time.


Why are you convinced it's the same effort level?

Science says otherwise. When you're running, you tend to be doing so in strides, which are supporting, and propelling your bodyweight - plus, as well as propelling your body, not merely in one vector, you are also moving your arms.

On a bike you are merely spinning your legs. Yes, there's the additional weight of the bike, and there's other factors at play, there. Clearly a bike is less physical effort for much the same speeds as running, else we'd just run everywhere, and not cycle.


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 Post subject: Re: Clipless merits
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:21 pm 
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mattr wrote:
You aren't flailing your arms about, you aren't supporting your own body weight = lower MHR and lower threshold.


So your saying that using extra muscles uses up that extra capacity?


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