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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:02 am 
Devout Dirtbag

Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:18 pm
Posts: 116
Started my ’90 Marin Palisades build and got to the headset install last night. I made a DIY press using a threaded rod, nuts and washers.
The crown race wouldn’t go on first try, and second try so I decided to chill the fork in some ice water and heat the race in boiling water and try again. While parts were heating/cooling I decided to press in the cups. I took the bottom cup and began cranking it in. Well things quickly got extremely difficult, the cup wouldn’t go in straight whatever I did (I did copious amounts of research before taking this on and knew what to do and expect) and the amount of torque required to turn the nuts was enormous, certainly much more than the various youtube videos I’d watched seemed to require. I know I should have stopped there and gone back to the drawing board but the red mist came down and I became more and more determined to get the cup in. After around 90 minutes the cup was in but my tool was looking rather tired. I had begun to strip the threads from the (M12 stainless!) nuts and several of the washers were now conical so when I attempted the top cup, it was even more difficult and it was getting late so I gave up. I didn’t try the crown race again.
After calming down I did some bedtime research. I have learnt that at 1" threaded headset is not necessarily a 1" threaded headset. There are several different varieties which have subtle differences, some are compatible with each other, some are not. What I bought for the bike is a 1" ISO headset (Ritchey Logic) which is the most common available today. It has 30.2mm OD on the cups and 26.4 ID on the crown race. It looks as though my frame was designed for a 1" JIS headset (it was made in Taiwan in 1990/91 which makes this likely apparently) which is made for 30.0 OD cups and 27mm ID crown race (the fork is stamped Ф27.0 which further evidences this). Apparently it is possible (but extremely difficult as I now know) to get ISO cups into a JIS head tube but it won't be possible to get the crown race on the fork, at least not without having the fork turned down.
So now I’m worried that by willing one cup into the frame last night I may have stretched the head tube slightly at one end ruining my frame. This wouldn’t be the end of the world since it’s a cheap beater of a frame but I want this bike to ride before summer’s out!!
I have decided my options are:
1. Carry on and install the other cup (probably using a vice) and assemble the headset using the old crown race which I kept hold of.
2. Bash the cup out of the frame and hope I haven’t stretched the head tube (it’s relatively thick walled) and get a JIS spec unit like the Velo Orange to install (although this is 40mm stack height and my steerer tube may not be long enough, I haven’t measured up yet)
3. Assume I’ve stretched the head tube and get one of the Tange Levin units which have a 27 ID on the crown race and a 30.2 OD on the cups. Wrestle with this in a vice to get the cups in.
4. Get a new frame and fit the right headset! I was going to do this anyway. The Palisades was only temporary until I could find an eldridge/pine mountain/team ‘90/’91 which I was going to move all of the parts on to. The Palisades would then be made into a single speed parts bin beater. If anyone has/knows of a frame for sale in 19”, please PM!
5. Something else which someone may suggest? I have never used my LBS since we recently moved house so I don’t know if they’re any good and what they’re competence is. I don’t have a set of verniers.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:35 pm 
Retro Guru
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Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:33 am
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Location: daaan saaaf
I had this problem with a Marin years ago, in my ignorance and impatience, I used a bit of emery cloth to sand down the 27.0 crown so I could fit a 26.4 crown race. It worked for years without problems after that, so I must have done an OK job. I wouldn't do it now though, I'd either get the forks machined properly, or buy the right headset.

I also tried a threaded rod to install headset cups, even in frames where the cups and frames were all correct it never really worked properly and I reverted to drifting the cups in using a piece of wood and a hammer. Later I bought a proper headset press in a sale; like this one:

Image

The stepped shoulders on the press hold the headset cups square, so they go in straight and it works really well.

In any case, I doubt the 30.2 cups will have damaged the frame, so removing the cups and fitting a JIS 1" headset will probably work fine and I wouldn't bother with the threaded rod, like me you'll probably find the hammer and piece of wood technique works better. Also, if your Marin frame and forks are like mine, you'll need a very low stack headset; the steerer on my forks is only 30mm longer than the headtube, so the top lock nut doesn't engage on the steerer threads with headsets with a stack height much over that.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:52 pm 
Devout Dirtbag

Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:18 pm
Posts: 116
Thanks xerxes,

I really hope you're right about the headtube. It was a mighty tight fit!

Having inspected the old crown race which I know fits the fork I think it's too worn to reuse really so my plan is to try to tap the cup out of the frame and buy a headset with a crown race that will fit.

Does anyone know about options for 1" JIS threaded headsets? I've found the Tange units and the velo orange one on the Shelton brown site and I've also come across reports that shimano units were available back in the day in both ISO and JIS formats. Can anyone confirm/deny or even better offer one for sale? I'm not bothered about period accuracy, just something reasonable quality that works!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:25 pm 
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Location: daaan saaaf
Not many JIS headsets about, but did come across this: http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php ... amp;z=3663


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:00 pm 
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M900 could be had in both sizes :

Image

WD :D


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:00 am 
Devout Dirtbag

Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:18 pm
Posts: 116
WD. Thanks for the info. But M900 on a rusty palisades beater might be a bit of a waste. On your BV it is majestic though, belated congratulations on a superb build.

Am still totally unsure about the way forward. I need a JIS headset that isn't worth more than the frame and still has life in it. I don't care about NOS for this bike, even used would be fine if it had minimal wear.

Does anyone know about the higher end marin frames from the same period? Did they use ISO or JIS headsets?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:29 am 
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Location: daaan saaaf
My 1990 Pine Mountain is JIS.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:10 am 
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Steel DX was fitted before the M900 so they must be out there to :D

WD :D


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:24 am 
Devout Dirtbag

Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:18 pm
Posts: 116
Great, thanks for the info WD. A used DX unit would be perfect. Now just got to find one!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:49 pm 
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NOS here : viewtopic.php?f=2&t=264692

WD :D


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