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 Post subject: Re: What is retro?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:20 pm 
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
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highlandsflyer wrote:
Whether it should advance each year would be a worthwhile debate, but at the end of the day it is just a little fun and nothing serious.


This was something I was thinking about too. It'd be an interesting question to moot.

As I said what the mods decide is their decision. No issue there. Having a split down to the introduction of one or two 'technologies' does seem a little odd. Every year there's something new.

My main point was to ensure the site continues to grown and be relevant; and to do so, what younger folk see as retro is an important consideration. Not just the pre '97 lovers. (I'm one of those too)


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 Post subject: Re: What is retro?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:21 pm 
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The cutoff point is the point where v-brakes and working suspension forks became mainstream.
As cce said, there were V-brakes in 1996 and 1997. However only a fraction of the bikes were actually equipped with them.

They had disc brakes in the early 90s too, but it wasn't until the mid-noughties that they really took off.

Personally, I'm all in favour of splitting it up into -> 97 , 98-2005 and 05+.
Then again, a few years down the line we'll need to make a new distinction because of hollowtech, press-fit crank bearings and what not. So maybe it's better to keep things just the way they are.


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 Post subject: Re: What is retro?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:25 pm 
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Chopper1192 wrote:
highlandsflyer wrote:
So the cut off should be 95 given that Vs came in in 96?

Or 2001, given that suspension with proper attention to damping and eliminating pedal bob didn't surface until then.


The dampening on the better 90s forks was pretty effective, and there were full suspension designs that dealt with pedal bob.

I think it is a case of accepting it is an arbitrary cut off at 97.

You would be able to find examples of disc brakes, great suspension designs and innovative shocks before that cut off, or argue there is some point where all these things became mass market, blah, blah, blah, but it would be like trying to pitch a tent in quick sand.


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 Post subject: Re: What is retro?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:30 pm 
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Forgive me, but I strensuosly disagree. Mass produced high performance full squidge didn't exist until the Renault F1 designed GiantnNRS system came along on the original XtC. Until that time there was no suspension system thatbisolated pedalling forces AND had had decent damping. The two were mutually exclusive until that point, mainly because over-firm damping was the common method of subduing the transmission forces. It was a huge leap in performance with a single design, and on its own marked the turning point in mtb history where suspension ceased to be a compromise. I bought, and still own, a full xtr version of the original XtC and it really did make everything before it look laughable.


Last edited by Chopper1192 on Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What is retro?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:32 pm 
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
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Chopper1192 wrote:
Forgive me, but I strensuosly disagree. Mass produced high performance full squidge didn't exist until the Renault F1 designed GiantnNRS system came along on the original XtC. Until that time there was no suspension system thatbisolated pedalling forces AND had had decent damping. The two were mutually exclusive until that point.



what about the john whyte designed Marin FRS system in 1997?


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 Post subject: Re: What is retro?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:37 pm 
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They were were hardly a revelation in their day, (and to this day Marin has never made a truly great full squidge bike) and are a very crude compared to NRS and the fully floating systems it spawned. That one design was the genesis of modern bicycle suspension and ever the best before it, like whyte and cannondale, were fundamentally compromised.


Last edited by Chopper1192 on Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What is retro?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:38 pm 
King of the Skip Monkeys
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Sir! Sir! I had hydraulic disc brakes in 1996!


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 Post subject: Re: What is retro?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:40 pm 
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
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Chopper1192 wrote:
They were were hardly a revelation in their day, (and to this day Marin has never made a truly great full squidge bike) and are a very crude compared to NRS and the fully floating systems it spawned. That one design was the genesis of modern bicycle suspension and ever the best before it, like whyte and cannondale, were fundamentally compromised.



There are plenty of highly effective single pivot designs.


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 Post subject: Re: What is retro?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:41 pm 
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Moulton was doing suspension bikes in the 60's...

There is no such thing as a "highly" effective single pivot suspension design as it doesn't desperate transmission forces from the suspension in the way that floating or true four bar do. It's the cycling equivalent of leaf springs on cars.


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 Post subject: Re: What is retro?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:07 pm 
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I don't recall many of the hardtails I rode having problems with pedal bob. Given full sussers are the minority, even today, it would be even more arbitrary to base a cut off point on the state of play in that arena. Like I said it is like quicksand.

V Brakes were on tons of mid range upwards bikes by 97.

It just does not work trying to set anything in stone. The development of the mountain bike, like most technology, moves so fast there are few certain watershed moments that occurred simultaneously across the whole industry.


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