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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:46 pm 
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
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Location: Cheshire
Raging_Bulls wrote:
I mean this kind of stuf, which requires you to have a garage full of weird spacers and bushings that you don't ever use on a normal bike.

http://forums.mtbr.com/vintage-retro-cl ... 96176.html


You see looking at that and the old Fat Chance press fit BB's brings you a full circle to the things manufacturers are now using. Press fit bottom brackets are the new normal. Ok not as intricate but its done a full circle.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:55 am 
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Location: Vancouver
I used to drool over Kleins BITD just like everyone else, but I don't really get the snobbishness. Manitou and Pace brought out way more innovative bikes around the same time, that still have features found in modern bikes (Aheadsets (albeit switched upside down), wider hubs, asymmetric rear triangles, wider bottom brackets, blah blah blah. Klein had an archaic steerer / stem combo but just bigger, annoying rear facing horizontal dropouts, crappy chainstay bridges that held mud etc etc. I wouldn't say no to a backfire Pinnacle but I just don't get the willy waving that comes with the brand.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:17 am 
Old School Grand Master
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Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:55 am
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Location: The land of Lea & Perrins
There's some cracking bike snobbery going on in this thread, fair play.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:44 am 
Geoff Capes
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Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:33 pm
Posts: 956
Location: On my laptop somewhere..
We must invoke Racin' snakes beautifully written sig which was coined on a similar thread:

Quote:
All Treklein snobs must perish
... :D

Are we all still here? :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:27 pm 
retrobike rider
retrobike rider
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Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:08 pm
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Location: Woking
I sold mine for a whopping £175. I liked the way it rode.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=112180&hilit=Klein

SP


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:06 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:27 pm
Posts: 988
Location: Devon
The snobbery really does wind me up, and thats coming from someone who used to sell Kleins BITD...

The older ones are definitely special, but to dismiss the post buyout models is madness, they are still excellent bikes, light stiff, great handling and well made, up until about 98 (and even maybe 99) they were still very recognisably Kleins and even if some of the passion had waned they still held on to a lot of the magic.

I spent ages looking for a the 'right' Klein for me, and you know what I was looking for? A 96-98 Pulse, yes that's right a Pulse, why?

Because it is the model closest to the buyout that has 1/18 headtube, to give me fork and headset flexibility (attitude and Adroit ruled out for this reason), normal BB shell, still uses gradient tubing, external cable housing may not be as neat but its a damn sight easier to deal with and replace, has geometry that suits rigid or 80-90mm forks equally well, is still stupidly light (and lighter than later attitudes) and rides like a Klein - great!

Later models did start to evolve into essentially duplicates of the Trek Alu frames, even using the same dropouts and tubesets towards the end and lost a lot of their individuality but they are still very very good bikes.

If my pulse ever dies I'll be looking for another one, (or maybe a slightly later attitude) in preference to the older models with their awkward BBs, headsets, crack prone seat bolts and annoying internal cable runs.

Hate me if you like but I think as actual bikes to ride and use, some of the later models are better options.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:20 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:09 am
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Location: SoCal, US
amedias wrote:
The snobbery really does wind me up, and thats coming from someone who used to sell Kleins BITD...

The older ones are definitely special, but to dismiss the post buyout models is madness, they are still excellent bikes, light stiff, great handling and well made, up until about 98 (and even maybe 99) they were still very recognisably Kleins and even if some of the passion had waned they still held on to a lot of the magic.

I spent ages looking for a the 'right' Klein for me, and you know what I was looking for? A 96-98 Pulse, yes that's right a Pulse, why?

Because it is the model closest to the buyout that has 1/18 headtube, to give me fork and headset flexibility (attitude and Adroit ruled out for this reason), normal BB shell, still uses gradient tubing, external cable housing may not be as neat but its a damn sight easier to deal with and replace, has geometry that suits rigid or 80-90mm forks equally well, is still stupidly light (and lighter than later attitudes) and rides like a Klein - great!

Later models did start to evolve into essentially duplicates of the Trek Alu frames, even using the same dropouts and tubesets towards the end and lost a lot of their individuality but they are still very very good bikes.

If my pulse ever dies I'll be looking for another one, (or maybe a slightly later attitude) in preference to the older models with their awkward BBs, headsets, crack prone seat bolts and annoying internal cable runs.

Hate me if you like but I think as actual bikes to ride and use, some of the later models are better options.


I don't hate you, just your opinion because it lacks facts.

First of if it's a 96-96 Pulse with external cable routing it's a pulse comp or whatever, which only has gradient tubing on the stays, not the whole frame, different from a Pulse and definitely less Klein. This frame was not lighter than a comparable built attitude, however the pulse/pulse II was. I've never had any issues with internal cable routing or the BBs. Cables are clean and out of the way, great for carrying your bike or just keeping them clean and as far as I'm concerned extremely easy to work with. I can insert the guides and string up a Klein in under 5 minutes. Nearly all of the BBs on my Kleins have lasted 15-20 years, so who cares how hard it is to replace them, you practically don't have to. Why do you need headset flexibility when the one built in lasts the whole life of the bike. Fork flexibility sure, that's difficult on an early Klein. But who cares when they ride so well rigid.

Furthermore, the only Kleins with cracked bolts that I've seen were due to user (idiot) error us using an undersize seatpost and making up for it by cranking down on the binder. I've had many kleins pass through my hands and less than 5% had any damage that resulted from technical / production flaws.

So, while I agree that a proper Pulse (not the comp) is quite possibly the most versatile Klein, I love my Adroit/Attitude and don't think the pulse comp is in the same league.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:29 pm 
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walleater wrote:
I used to drool over Kleins BITD just like everyone else, but I don't really get the snobbishness. Manitou and Pace brought out way more innovative bikes around the same time, that still have features found in modern bikes (Aheadsets (albeit switched upside down), wider hubs, asymmetric rear triangles, wider bottom brackets, blah blah blah. Klein had an archaic steerer / stem combo but just bigger, annoying rear facing horizontal dropouts, crappy chainstay bridges that held mud etc etc. I wouldn't say no to a backfire Pinnacle but I just don't get the willy waving that comes with the brand.


Have you ridden a DBM??? How about an Adroit/Attitude? Having both bikes as frequent riders the Adroit outshines the DBM any day of the week. Lighter, more agile, stiffer, better climber. Maybe-maybe the DBM is more stable at high speed, but just by a bit.

I am a huge fan of DB and think he had some great innovations and was way ahead of his time. Agreed on the hub axle length, BB length YES. DB didn't innovate the aheadset BTW, don't know where you're getting that notion from. But his bikes are not as exciting to ride as a Klein, plain and simple.

However saying that Klein had this archaic headset is very ignorant. Have you seen a modern Cannondale, Specialized??? Have you looked at their headsets?? What do they remind you of???

On another note Klein was building Aluminum mountain bikes on a production scale when DBM was cranking out 50-60 a year and Pace was a word used to describe speed and velocity, not the name of a bike company. So to say they didn't lead innovation in the Al frame bike market is simply ignorant.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:29 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:27 pm
Posts: 988
Location: Devon
My opinion doesn't lack facts, I may not have been as concise or in depth with my post as you would have liked, but I'm familiar with the range, I used to sell them and raced a few seasons on an Attitude and looked after a couple of our shops sponsored riders Adroits, I've been lucky enough to have ridden pretty much all of the Klein models at some point from about 92 onwards, gradient on the stays is good enough for me and the ride of the Pulse is 90% as good but with none of the drawbacks for me, and I said it was lighter than *later* attitudes (ones with 1 1/8th headtubes) not Attitudes of the same era.

I've also just spotted that you're from SoCal, which explains why you don't have problems with cabling or wearing out bearings, try riding any bike for a British winter and you'll understand why ease of cable and BB maintenance and replacement are of importance. I've managed to kill a brand new BB and rear hub bearings in a single race before, and that was in June!

We used to sell a fair few Attitudes and Adroits and many more came through the workshops and honestly, the integrated BB bearings just made what should be a quick job a right ballache, and don't give any options to run modern cranks or BBs, ahead of its time yes, but practical, no.

And fork and component flexibility is very important, especially as standards and kit changes, I like to keep my bikes in use for as long as possible, and often that does include updating and replacing parts, the more universally compatible a frame is the more chance it has of having a long life.

Even if you stood in front of me with a Pulse and an Adroit and offered me one for free, I would pick the Pulse for the reasons I outlined above, for me it is the better option, it fulfils my needs better. I really do think it is the unsung hero of the range, 90% as good but a lot more versatile, with the added bonus of being cheap on the 2nd hand market.

What is evident from your posts is that you are passionate about Gary's bikes, and the Klein brand in general, and I applaud that, but it doesn't make other people's opinions any less valid, especially when they may have differing needs and requirements and there really is no need for the snobbery.

To quote a friend...

"Just because two people have different opinions, that doesn't mean one of them is right and one of them is wrong..."


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:13 am 
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Well, I won't debate what someone prefers. Some people prefer a 318i to an M3 or whatever and that's fine. But, saying that those two are just as good and supporting it with incorrect information is an argument I won't back down from.


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