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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:50 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:21 am
Posts: 6
Location: Grantham
Hello - first post, I hope this question is in the right forum.

I have a Saracen Traverse, bought new in 1992.

I will appreciate it if someone could help me please with information regarding the spacers on the rear axle.

Over the years the spacers might have been incorrectly reinstalled after rear hub/cone disassembly.

It's more-or-less as original, apart from an Orange AliStalk stem (the original Zoom stem had to be replaced) and pedals.

I'm reasonably sure, but not absolutely sure that all of the rear axle spacers are in the right place - but, over the years they might have been mis-installed (gear changes are OK, the rear derailleur high/low adjustment screws don't seem to be abnormally screwed in/out).

The rear dropout spacing is 135mm.

All of the spacers are currently on the non-drive side of the axle. There is one wide spacer (10mm?) and two thinner ones (5mm each?).

There is also a washer (about 1mm) between the locknuts and cones on each side of the axle.

Can anyone confirm that this is correct (or otherwise), please?

This is assuming that respondent's rear hub is identical to mine, with the same spacers (Shimano also made a 130mm version of the FH-M650 - mine might be a 130mm hub which has extra spacers added). Also assuming that the spacers are as originally installed by Saracen.

Thanks in advance


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:33 am 
Retro Guru
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Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:33 am
Posts: 2923
Location: daaan saaaf
It sounds OK to me, is the wheel centred in the frame OK?

Here's a picture of the rear hub on my 90s MTB:
Image


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:01 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:21 am
Posts: 6
Location: Grantham
Thanks for your reply and for the picture.

My previous post was incorrect:
'There is one wide spacer (10mm?) and two thinner ones (5mm each?)'

It should have read:
Non-drive side - 2 x 5mm spacers plus a 1mm washer under the locknut
Drive side - no spacers (apart from a 1mm washer between the cone and locknut

Looks as if your non-drive side has 2 x 5mm + 1 x 2.5mm spacers with no washer under the locknut.

The wheel is reasonably well-centred, but not perfect - the rim isn't completely true, plus crashed years ago and badly bent/kinked the drive side chain stay and seat stay (I cold-straightened it successfully).

Everything seems OK, the wheel is reasonably well-centred, the rear derailleur high/low adjustment screws seem to be about right.

Have had a bit of trouble recently after ball-bearing replacement/rear cones adjustment (bad case of self-tightening drive side cone).

After dismantling/reassembling several times I started to worry - had I reinstalled everything as original?

Thanks


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:08 pm 
National & North West AEC
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Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:43 am
Posts: 8146
Location: Macclesfield Forest
The order of the spacers doesn't really matter too much, as long as the wheel is centred and their is the correct gap between the smallest sprocket/lockring and the inner face of the drive-side drop-out.

If I'm building up a new axle, I'll always start with the drive-side cone, seals, spacers and locknut.
With the cassette and bearing in place you can establish how far the outer locknut is from the cassette lockring. This is normally 2-3mm.
You can also make sure you have the necessary 5-6mm of axle showing which locates into the drop-out.

Once all that is sorted I use an axle clamp in a vice to make sure the drive-side cone and locknut is done up really nice and tight. A dab of locktite is also a good idea.

Then you can build up the non-drive side cone, adjusting the amount of spacers until you have the same 5-6mm of axle thread showing.

All that said, here is an exploded diagram of a DX M650 freehub:

Image

Have you any more photos of your Traverse?
I haven't seen another one other than the one I have: --> http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=113457


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:11 pm 
National & North West AEC
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Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:43 am
Posts: 8146
Location: Macclesfield Forest
You'll notice from the above that the drive-side assembly is the same for both 130mm and 135mm OLN.

There is an extra 4 mm spacer (12) and a 1mm spacer (13) on the non-drive-side with the 135mm OLN set up.

Here are the widths for each of those spacers:

(4) = 2.3mm
(5) = 0.5mm
(11) = 1.2mm
(12) = 4.0mm
(13) = 1.0mm


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:49 pm 
Gold Trader
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Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:40 pm
Posts: 2163
Location: Nottingham
"The order of the spacers doesn't really matter too much, as long as the wheel is centred and their is the correct gap between the smallest sprocket/lockring and the inner face of the drive-side drop-out. "

Precisely. So, for example, when re-spacing and re-dishing a geared wheel to get a clean chain line for s/s or fixed, one can swop spacers as necessary.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:55 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:21 am
Posts: 6
Location: Grantham
Thanks drystonepaul and oldave - I've only just noticed your responses. Something seems to have gone amiss with my email notifications of responses. I visited the site this evening to have a browse through the various topics - I discovered that my question was originally in the wrong forum (Reader's MTBs --> 1997), and has been moved (Retro MTB Chat). I also found your responses.

Thanks for the exploded diagram drystonepaul. I had already read your article, 1992 Saracen Traverse Completed for the OWMTBC. I had tried zooming-in on the rear hub shown in one of the images, but couldn't make out the spacers etc.

I've just checked my rear hub again - it seems that the spacers aren't correct after all.

On my axle:

Drive side:
Thicker locknut (I hadn't fully realised until tonight that the 2 locknuts are different)
1 x (13) = 1.0mm
or
1 x (11) = 1.2mm
(it's hard to tell whether 1.0mm or 1.2mm while hub is still on bike)

Non-drive side:
Thinner locknut (I hadn't fully realised until tonight that the 2 locknuts are different)
2 x (12) = 4.0mm
1 x (13) = 1.0mm
or
1 x (11) = 1.2mm
(it's hard to tell whether 1.0mm or 1.2mm while hub is still on bike)

So on my axle:
The locknuts are on the wrong sides/need swapping
and

Missing on non-drive side:
either 1 x (11) = 1.2mm or 1 x (13) = 1.00mm, depending on whichever is currently on there

Missing on drive side:
1 x (4) = 2.3mm
1 x (5) = 0.5mm
either 1 x (11) = 1.2mm or 1 x (13) = 1.00mm, depending on whichever is currently on there


The exploded diagram shows that I should have a total of 14.0mm of spacers on the axle
It seems that I have a total of 10mm spacers (assuming that I've got 1.00mm washers installed, not 1.2mm ones)

Also, I hadn't noticed before tonight that according to the exploded diagram the drive side and non-drive side cones are different (the drive side is made up of part numbers 8, 21 and 7(seal), the non-drive side is 10 and 7(seal).
I might have installed the cones the wrong-way round.

I can understand that over the years I've managed to put the spacers/cones on the wrong sides of the axle, but I can't understand how I've managed to lose spacers totalling 4.0mm.

I suppose it is possible that there were different versions of the 135mm OLN hub manufactured - I'm pretty sure that later versions of the drive side rear dust seal are different to the one on my hub. The later ones are a one-piece plastic moulding , mine was a two part assembly (now partially disintegrated).

I measured the space in between the rear dropouts the other day - it was 135mm - I'll check it again.
Even with 4.0mm of spacers missing the hub/axle is a tight fit (considering the bent chain stay and seat stay repair it is a remarkably good fit).

I think the rear hub cups and cones have about had it - there is uneven play/tight spot when the wheel is rotated.

On the latest reassembly I tightened up the locknuts really well and loctited the drive side cone and locknut. Everything seemed OK when I went out on it on Sunday.

Back to the drawing board - I need to get this right: oldave - 'the correct gap between the smallest sprocket/lockring and the inner face of the drive-side drop-out.'

From 'All About Bicycle Chainline - Sheldon Brown':
Chainline Standards:
MTB Triple 47.5-50 mm Shimano spec, measured to the middle ring.
47.5 preferred, but for frames with oversized seat tubes, the longer dimension may be needed, because the fat tube places the derailer mechanism farther to the right.


I've ordered a pair of these for when the hub finally gives up completely:
(I'm not sure if it's OK to display the direct link on the forum)
Google this: - Shimano front rear pair hubs NOS 32h 7 speed freehub
front HB-RM50
rear FH-HG50

drystonepaul - I'll post some pictures of the bike after I've cleaned it up - it was really muddy on Sunday, the bike is still in a bit of a state.

thanks for your help


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:41 am 
Newbie

Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:21 am
Posts: 6
Location: Grantham
Correction to my last post - I misread the diagram, I've found that both cones are identical, the same dimensions, both are one-piece.

I think part 21 on the diagram locates inside part 17 (freehub seal) when the hub/axle is assembled. It is missing on my axle/hub (disintegrated years ago).


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