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 Post subject: Re: Ugly modern bikes
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:06 pm 
Old School Grand Master
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Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:57 pm
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Location: Antwerp, Belgium
MikeD wrote:
Assembled in Holland from frames made in Taiwan.


That's common practice, and has been so since the early 90's.


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 Post subject: Re: Ugly modern bikes
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:21 pm 
Retro Guru

Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:12 am
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Location: Anglesey
Regardless of where they're made, the VN has far more quality and aesthetic appeal in its design than the BoredMan.

It's not just about frames anyway, I find newer mechs, rims, saddles and stems equally hideous. Earlier generations found beauty in visibly engineered and machined components with simplicity in the design - now it's all about aggressive visual impact, fighting for attention with all the other parts. Maybe that's because the target market is considerably younger, I don't know.


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 Post subject: Re: Ugly modern bikes
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:46 pm 
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MikeD wrote:
ibbz wrote:
VN bikes made in their workshop in HOLLAND according to their website.


Assembled in Holland from frames made in Taiwan.


This isn't about whether Chinese or otherwise it's about ugly modern bikes and not all modern bikes are ugly . The VN are very nice.
But the website says the following;

Technology & Craftmanship

The central tenet of our philosophy is simple, old-fashioned craftsmanship. No one cares more about the finished product than the skilled workers who put their names to it. The designer, the fabricator, the mechanic. This is why we hand-build every single Van Nicholas here at our factory in Holland. But believing in craftsmanship does not mean we ignore modern technologies. We are constantly seeking to evolve. We created the first Seamless Hydroformed Titanium frame, drawing on groundbreaking work carried out by the Delft University of Technology. We design and manufacture our own range of state-of-the-art apparel and components. We can even custom-build you the ultimate bicycle – tailored to your individual dimensions, bespoke, unique.

So if the bike frame is made in china or Taiwan this is very misleading.


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 Post subject: Re: Ugly modern bikes
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:05 am 
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Under EU labelling rules, bolting all the bits onto an imported frame counts as "built in <wherever>".

Someone on MTBR asked Van Nicholas directly a couple of years back, this was the reply:

Quote:
Thank you for your interest in Van Nicholas.

Our Factory is in the Far East where we manufacture all of our frames for over ten years. Our design department, sales office, assembling department and testing facilities are all in the Netherlands.

As you have seen we work with a fixed program but we also offer custom/ Tailormade made bikes.

Please let us know your wishes.

Met vriendelijke groet/ Best regards,


(http://forums.mtbr.com/all-mountain/one ... 36785.html)

And I'm not holding up the Boardman FS as some kind of aesthetic paragon, but it's not hideous. The Van Nic full-susser mings, though ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Ugly modern bikes
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:13 am 
Old School Grand Master
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Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:33 pm
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Location: The Home Of Mountain Biking, And All Great Things.
ibbz wrote:
I would never pay the same for a bike produced in China and one produced in England.


Let's remember Taiwan produces many of the high quality frames coming from the East.

What you have in Asia is the world centre of excellence for Tig welding, Hydro-forming, CF work/whatever. If you can't get it made economically at whatever quality level you need in Taiwan, it simply cannot be made.

I love hand made frames such as some here have had made, and there is always going to be a market for such for those who appreciate them.

Let us not pretend that relatively large production runs of lightweight steel bikes from a large maker are not up to snuff though. Regardless of where they are produced.

This is what happened to the American car industry.

"Heck Bill, no one will want to buy those Jap cars, they are small and made of tinfoil. Everyone wants a quality American auto mobile."

Head in sand moments like that ended the British car industry and bicycle industry.

What we excel in is design and customisation. Where the manufacturing occurs is totally dependent on economics.

God help us as we descend into the state where it is economical to start producing steel here again, and our workers are desperate enough to go back to the conditions and pay levels that the Taiwanese currently accept to produce our products.


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 Post subject: Re: Ugly modern bikes
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:17 am 
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MikeD wrote:
Under EU labelling rules, bolting all the bits onto an imported frame counts as "built in <wherever>".

Someone on MTBR asked Van Nicholas directly a couple of years back, this was the reply:

Quote:
Thank you for your interest in Van Nicholas.

Our Factory is in the Far East where we manufacture all of our frames for over ten years. Our design department, sales office, assembling department and testing facilities are all in the Netherlands.

As you have seen we work with a fixed program but we also offer custom/ Tailormade made bikes.

Please let us know your wishes.

Met vriendelijke groet/ Best regards,





(http://forums.mtbr.com/all-mountain/one ... 36785.html)

And I'm not holding up the Boardman FS as some kind of aesthetic paragon, but it's not hideous. The Van Nic full-susser mings, though ;)


Thanks for sharing that man.
VN are misleading with their claims, and need to reword their website, as to some in makes a huge difference!

And the Boardman looks wack! All Boardmen (?) look tack, and even if given one free I doubt I'd even want to sit on it. :P Same with 75% of bikes out there, expensive or not. :) I can be an opinionated prig at times!


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 Post subject: Re: Ugly modern bikes
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:20 am 
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Koupe wrote:
Regardless of where they're made, the VN has far more quality and aesthetic appeal in its design than the BoredMan.

It's not just about frames anyway, I find newer mechs, rims, saddles and stems equally hideous. Earlier generations found beauty in visibly engineered and machined components with simplicity in the design - now it's all about aggressive visual impact, fighting for attention with all the other parts. Maybe that's because the target market is considerably younger, I don't know.



Agreed 100%


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 Post subject: Re: Ugly modern bikes
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:34 pm 
Gold Trader
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Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:40 pm
Posts: 2157
Location: Nottingham
highlandsflyer wrote:
ibbz wrote:
I would never pay the same for a bike produced in China and one produced in England.


Let's remember Taiwan produces many of the high quality frames coming from the East.

What you have in Asia is the world centre of excellence for Tig welding, Hydro-forming, CF work/whatever. If you can't get it made economically at whatever quality level you need in Taiwan, it simply cannot be made. .......


@ ibbz, assuming that you mean that you wouldn't pay AS MUCH for a bike produced in China (you may of course mean the opposite!), why not? The Chinese are actually quite clever you know - there is nothing that "we" can make that they cannot! Their customer care can also be significantly better than commonly found in UK. A few years ago I was discussing Ti frames with the Xian-based company that, from memory, was building Airbornes (now VN): what a helpful and nice man! Answered emails a damn sight quicker than a few UK builders of whom I've made enquiries.

And plus 1 to highlandsflyer comments.

FWIW, I can't see that VN's statements in any way untrue - slight case of a sin of omission, but that's standard commercial practice!


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 Post subject: Re: Ugly modern bikes
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:44 pm 
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oldave wrote:
highlandsflyer wrote:
ibbz wrote:
I would never pay the same for a bike produced in China and one produced in England.


Let's remember Taiwan produces many of the high quality frames coming from the East.

What you have in Asia is the world centre of excellence for Tig welding, Hydro-forming, CF work/whatever. If you can't get it made economically at whatever quality level you need in Taiwan, it simply cannot be made. .......


@ ibbz, assuming that you mean that you wouldn't pay AS MUCH for a bike produced in China (you may of course mean the opposite!), why not? The Chinese are actually quite clever you know - there is nothing that "we" can make that they cannot! Their customer care can also be significantly better than commonly found in UK. A few years ago I was discussing Ti frames with the Xian-based company that, from memory, was building Airbornes (now VN): what a helpful and nice man! Answered emails a damn sight quicker than a few UK builders of whom I've made enquiries.

And plus 1 to highlandsflyer comments.

FWIW, I can't see that VN's statements in any way untrue - slight case of a sin of omission, but that's standard commercial practice!



Hi mate, I explained my reasons earlier. I'm all for "in-House", and I place greater value on such things.
I know Taiwan has great welders, builders and engineers, and I have a Taiwanese bike, made "In-House" - a Merida. I think Merida are as good as any Western brand, and what I love about it is that it is "In House" made, and Merida have their own history and pride.

Whereas say eg. Specialized outsourced aren't as valuable to me - I explained the reasons why earlier.

Taiwan I place just under Korea, so right up there in terms of technological and industrial prowess.

China is a different story, I avoid Chinese made goods if I can and only buy them if I have to or haven't much of a choice.


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 Post subject: Re: Ugly modern bikes
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:21 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:30 pm
Posts: 566
Location: Prague
Some more modern bikes that are nice.
-Ventana ofcourse is a living dinosaur that somehow survived below the radar :D so ideal for retrobiker.
-Funk is cheating a bit because its very custom now and we could post most of the NAHBS entries here.. But its beautiful anyway.
-Scott although committing most crimes in terms of graphics on frame, rims etc at least has it subtle-tone in tone, and carbon frame is very clean and elegant.
-Endorfin is german, handmade, minimalist and unaffected by graphics trends.
-Boardman brand I never heard of before and that FS bike shown here before was nothing special.
I gave it a second chance and googled this hardtail.
Although it also doesnt have any original signature features. It mixes up those bright colours nicely (in a racing way) and is quite sharp looking.


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