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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:37 pm 
Retro Guru
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Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 9:50 pm
Posts: 921
Location: Yorkshirecestershshire
MAVIC UST (Use Standard Tubes!)


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 Post subject: Re: Thorns
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:27 am 
Retro Guru
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Location: 52 Festive Road. (Nr. Lincoln)
Wold Ranger wrote:
I just use Latex and don't have a problem, just pull the thorns out after each ride. They puncture the tyre but not the tube.


So you do use latex then, that's going to add weight. More than a tubeless conversion as you have rim strip, latex and complete inner tube versus what is effectively latex and half an inner tube.
You must be lucky and have little diddy thorns if they go through the tyre but not the tube then, some of the buggers I pull out are like sharks teeth.


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 Post subject: Rubbers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:01 pm 
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Location: North Yorkshire
No showing your lack of age there, Latex Inner tubes, Air B, Miche or Conti'Not latex yukky gunk. These weigh around 100g on their own, rim strip=sub 10g (kevlar roadie stickie tape)


Last edited by Wold Ranger on Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:07 pm 
retrobike rider
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Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:22 pm
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Location: Hove
Well, I'm going to try Stan's/Joe's anyway. But not just for puncture protection, I'm intrigued to test out the claimed dynamic benefits of tubeless.

The interesting thing about latex tubes is that the reason they get bad scores on mtbr (av 3) is because about half the people give them 5 out of 5 and the other half give them 1 out of 5. So hugely controversial. And it seems as though most of the people who say they're fine run them at above 40psi and pump them up every ride, and that's the only way to avoid flats (so they say).

But what about these dynamic benefits of tubeless, that lead Christophe Sauser to win races running his at 28psi in the world cup xc? Any views?


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 Post subject: Pressure
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:42 pm 
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Low Pressures, stops you being thrown around all over the place at that sort of speed, suspension, contrary to many mags can't keep up with the stutter that fatigues you and throws you around, neither air nor coil. (Ironically old elastomer forks can) Tyres are still the best form of suspension, but to be effective, needs to be sub 35psi and preferably sub 30, which with ordinary tyres/tube combo's you would quickly pinch flat, hence tubeless, but with standard tyres run tubeless (stans) at 28 psi, they would simply roll on the rim too much, breaking the seal and pop.

This is why Stans etc with standard tubes are pointless, other than for reducing punctures. Tubeless tyres have very much thicker sidewalls and stiffer, more rigid tread areas so that they can retain their shape at low pressures, some run them at 23/24psi and don't roll off the rim, releasing the air. This means the average Tubeless tyre will be 200g heavier, more than negating the lack of a tube.

The other problems are, if you do puncture, the tyres full of horrible sticky gunk so fitting a tube is a nightmare trailside and the price of £20 plus each tyre.
If you want to go tubeless, to benefit from the low pressures, you have to buy specific tubeless tyres. I have a shed load of IRC Mibro tubeless in stock, that the British team use. They are currently the lightest tubeless specific at around 640g (the same tubed IRC tyre weighes 400g.) I have some Hutchinson and Michelin XC that weigh 850g, so not light! If you want to try some proper Toobless I have some of these Mibro's spare in 1.95 brand new.


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 Post subject: Re: Rubbers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:27 pm 
Retro Guru
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Wold Ranger wrote:
No showing your lack of age there,


What do you mean by that?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:29 pm 
Retro Guru
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No answer then.

Let me just say that if latex tubes stop thorn punctures I would use them, but how can they? Could you explain to me how a soft tube doesn't puncture after a tyre is penetrated by a thorn without resorting to daft digs at me if you can do that? OK latex can deform, but surely not enough against a needle-like sharp object such as a thorn eh?
As I've already said I'd use anything for a puncture free ride, currently at the expense of using higher pressures (40 PSIG) in conjunction with a tubeless conversion.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 7:13 pm 
retrobike rider
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Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:22 pm
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stevek wrote:
No answer then.

Let me just say that if latex tubes stop thorn punctures I would use them, but how can they? Could you explain to me how a soft tube doesn't puncture after a tyre is penetrated by a thorn without resorting to daft digs at me if you can do that? OK latex can deform, but surely not enough against a needle-like sharp object such as a thorn eh?
As I've already said I'd use anything for a puncture free ride, currently at the expense of using higher pressures (40 PSIG) in conjunction with a tubeless conversion.


That's interesting - so do you confirm W-R's view that you need 40psi in a Stan's/non-UST set up to avoid the tyre coming off the rim then? I'm just surprised because I don't see that reported anywhere in mtbr. Both Stan's and Joe's websites do say that you need to be careful to ensure that the liner precisely fits the rim in order to avoid this issue.

I think it's true that latex is more resistant to thorn punctures, because it's supposed to have seven times the elasticity of butyl rubber. But users say it still suffers from snakebite punctures if you run below 40psi, it leaks air hence the need to pump up every ride (wouldn't bother me though), it's difficult to repair because some patches won't stick and it's prone to catastrophic failure from splitting along the weld. But the other 50% say it's fantastic!

So W-R is happy with latex, you're happy with Stan's/non-UST, and Christophe Sauser is happy with UST. I think W-R is right that most people can't be bothered with anything that's a bit of a faff, and that's why more don't use Stan's. Enough do to have made Stan quite rich though.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 7:45 pm 
Gold Trader / PoTM Winner / RB Rider
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Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:45 pm
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Like everything tubeless tyres will improve .

On a road bike , tubulars are so much nicer to ride . the feel is just incredible .


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:48 pm 
Gold Trader
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Location: Stressville
Blimey, turned out a bit controversial this one... :oops:

After all the chat, think I'm gonna give it a go.

As for the latex tubes, I remember seeing the old ads where a (uninflated "thick" tube) was stretched over a broken bottle. Turns out when inflated and stretched, the material becomes a lot thinner hence it was pretty crap at stopping punctures. Had one on the front of my bike and guess what, it's been punctured (might have been a pinch too ? ) :cry:


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