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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:20 pm 
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
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Location: Yateley, Hants.
As for a refund, the sale of goods act 1979 states that the supplier must offer repair/replacement/refund for up to six years from the purchase date, now if they cannot repair it adequately and a replacement is not comparable they are legally obliged to refund.
If they have offered a lifetime warranty they many have saddled themselves with a lifetime obligation to the above.
If you need further clarification phone your local branch of consumer direct.

Carl.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:22 pm 
Retro Guru
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http://www.meg.co.uk/courses/21.php

Quote:
Bronze welding is a process of joining metals in which the edges of the metal are heated to a temperature below their melting point and a bronze alloy is simultaneously melted and caused to flow over the edges and join with them. By this means a strong and ductile union is produced between high melting point metals, i.e. cast iron, steel, copper and malleable iron etc.

Bronze welding resembles brazing up to a point, the application of brazing is generally limited to joints where a close fit or mechanical fastening serves to consolidate the assembly.


I draw your attention to the second paragraph, which refers simply to "brazing". If we're talking bike frames, the "close fit or mechanical fastening" referred to would be lugs into which the tubes are brazed. If there's no lug, you're relying on the filler material to hold the tubes together:

Quote:
In bronze welding the filler alone provides the joint strength


Which is what's also known, although possibly only in framebuilding circles, as "fillet brazing". The extra word "fillet" is important :)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:37 pm 
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http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/builders/brazing-welding-norris-builders.html

I believe Thorn have a framebuilder on site who would do the repair (and could also build you an 853 frame...)

I can't understand where they got £300 from- you paid £600! I think it would be a good idea to keep pushing for either a new 853 frame, £600 or a lifetime warranty on the repaired frame- that way it would be a real like for like.

You got to haggle!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:42 pm 
Gold Trader / PoTM Winner / RB Rider
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CTK wrote:
I can't understand where they got £300 from- you paid £600! I think it would be a good idea to keep pushing for either a new 853 frame, £600 or a lifetime warranty on the repaired frame- that way it would be a real like for like.

You got to haggle!


warranty and guarantee are different. a lifetime guarantee would be like for like. a warrany is, or can be more of a sliding scale. they could take into consideration the fact the o.p. has had 5 years use out of the frame already.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:43 pm 
Retro Guru

Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:10 pm
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Location: Kent,25 miles from France
TGR needs to have his 2p's worth (as he's bored)

2 issues here.

The warrenty one and the technical aspect of the orginal weld.
I'm sure CAB can advise on the first. That will leave the rest of us a go on the second.

It sounds like welding MIG,TIG or what ever method employed without PWHT ( post weld heat treatment) is not correct for this reynolds tubing ?

Some blurb from the Reynolds site says....


"The benefits of air-hardening steels are particularly noticeable in the weld area where, unlike conventional steel alloys, strength can actually increase after cooling in air immediately after welding. 853 is heat-treated to give high strength and damage resistance, and the steel properties allow thin walls to be used, so that lower weight but fatigue-resistant structures can be made. "

We are however not sure what initiated the crack. An original defect in the tube or weld and then fatigue from (bi)cycling ?

The reynolds blurb appears to be more about their manufacturing technique that subsequent fabrication. What it does not say is how the steel is air cooled.Quenched with a blast, or a controlled cooling ?

All useless anyway. I would expect that the welds should have been post weld heat treated to removed any residual stress caused by the welding. The welding activity will have changed the materials properties within the HAZ ( heat affected zone ). However, I doubt the original manufacturer of the frame stuck each frame in an oven and carefully took the frame upto it's anealing point and back again over a period of hours.


Maybe it's only a bike frame and we should not get too excited about it ?
Yes, because 1)the frame was a lot of money, and 2) I like to make sure things I use ( planes,cars, bridges etc ) are properly engineered and don't fail !


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:53 pm 
retrobike rider
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Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:15 pm
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Location: western sussexshire
The frame building workshop and frame builder are no more at Thorn, they closed down that part of the operaton quite recently - June according to a comment on their forum.

The £300 is the price they are selling the remaining odd sized (larger) Enduro frames off for to clear. The Sterling is £349 IRC. They do think that the Sterling with it's own brand tubing is equivelant but I don't agree, and the sizes and geometry do not suit me at all. They asked me to print their email offer to me in full, if I quote them on a forum, so here it is.

From Thorn to me..QUOTE

"I’ve made some enquiries and I’ve pulled a few strings and I can get your frame repaired. The repair would be fitting a new conical 853 down tube and new headtube. The repair would have to be bronze welded and you could choose (practically) any single colour you wish, we can not supply decals, other than stick on vinyl decals, which I guarantee would fall off. Do you ever or will you ever use a Crud catcher or similar under the down tube? If not, I could get the new down tube fitted lower down on the headtube. The geometry would be identical but the effective reduction in the unsupported area of the headtube would reduce the stresses in the lower section of the headtube. I’d expect the repair to last as long as a new frame (longer if you don’t require crown clearance with Cruddie boss) but, if you proceed with this option, we will only guarantee the repair for 2 years.



I still think that, for most people…perhaps even you, the Sterling is a better bike than the Enduro and I still think that one would fit you. Whilst we have never had a cracked headtube on an Enduro, we have had some cracked down tubes, which is why I decided to go for a gusset and why I decided to go for a heat treated Cro- Mo frame with greater thickness to the top of the down tube. I am much happier with our lifetime warranty on a Sterling frame than I would have been if we continued with the Enduro.

Sure the Sterling is not as focused as the Enduro, some people actually prefer to race on V brakes. If you accept the Sterling as a replacement you will have the continuation of our lifetime warranty.



If neither of these options is acceptable to you, we will offer you £300 as a partial refund of the cost of the Enduro frame; after all you have had 5 year’s hard riding out of it. If you decide to post this response on your forums please be courteous enough to print it in full, as we are offering a replacement frame, a guaranteed repair or a partial refund and the choice of one of these options is yours for the taking.

Best regards,

Andy B.

Andy Blance"


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:20 pm 
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i'd have to say, even though you might not be getting exactly what you want, as nothing would be a perfect replacement for your bike since they can't offer that. they seem to be trying to be fair and reasonable with their offer and choices in settling the matter in a proper manner with you.

if i were in your shoes, i'd take the repair and 2 year warranty. honestly can't expect something to last forever, can you?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:41 pm 
Gold Trader / PoTM Winner / RB Rider
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Location: brigg, home of the gypsies
I'll echo that. They are definately doing something for you.

Everything they are offering seems sensible really but i think i'd go for the repair.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:25 pm 
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Go for the repair!
However, it might be worth checking out your credit card company's liability (If you paid by CC), if you're insistent on a full refund. After all, Thorn have admitted that the frame was not as tough as they thought, hence , possibly, the discontinuation.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:05 pm 
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
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suburbanreuben wrote:
Go for the repair!
However, it might be worth checking out your credit card company's liability (If you paid by CC), if you're insistent on a full refund. After all, Thorn have admitted that the frame was not as tough as they thought, hence , possibly, the discontinuation.


They have covered their obligation under SOGA 1979 by offering a repair with the original materials.
I am fighting a battle with a company that refuses to acknowledge their responsibility at all and am going though the CC company and section 75, if I was being offered any of these options in this situation I would be happy.

Personally I would go with the repair and start to save for a new frame.

Carl.


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