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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:31 pm 
Dirt Disciple
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Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:07 pm
Posts: 18
Edit: Sun Dec 31 2017

Here's a summary of the quest so far. Pls see page 6 - the new pics of the totally stripped frame.

Distinctive (or not) details:
(1) Seat tube top - is concave, curved in.
(2) Rear brake cable routing - brazed-on noodle on the seat tube.
(3) Seat post binder bolt - is behind the seat tube.
(4) Top mounted cable routing - the shifter cables and the rear brake cable are routed along the top of the top tube.
(5) Head tube - the reinforcement rings.
(6) Rear derailleur cable braze guides - are under the seat stay.
(7) Ritchey rear dropouts - incl flat (vs round) seat stay and chain stay ends

Measurements:
- Weight (approx): 1.886 kg
- Steerer: 1 1/8 inch
- Seatpost (approx): 26.6 mm
- BB (British): 68 mm
- Dropout spacing: 135 mm
- Top Tube (approx): 590 mm (c-c); 615 mm (effective); 28.6 mm (diameter out)
- Seat Tube (approx): 435 mm (c-t); 390 mm (c-c); 28.6 mm (diameter out)
- Head Tube (approx): 110 mm; 36.5 mm (diameter out)
- Down Tube (approx): 32 mm (diameter out)
- Chainstay (approx): 420 mm
- Reach (approx): 460 mm

Serial Number: B99XXXX (B plus 6 digits)

Other (Ir)Relevancies:
- Came equipped with a threaded 1 1/8 inch triple butted (TB) rigid Kona Project 2 (P2) fork.
- Originally from Germany.

Close matches so far:
- Many Scott mid-90s models.
- Biria MX700, but round seat stay and chain stay ends and the 27.2 mm seatpost.

I will now extend the quest to other forums as well.

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The original first post of the thread "ID 2 kg mid 90s steel frame - with TB P2 but not Kona?":

Hi everyone,

I acquired this steel frame awhile ago, just to get the threaded 1 1/8 inch Kona Project 2 rigid fork it came equipped with to another build and let the frame go. Then I noticed the "TB" (triple butted; later measured 834 g, incl a bolt) stamp on the steerer, and that aroused my interest in the frame too - but is it any good?

Distinctive (or not) details - please also find some pics attached:
(1) Ritchey dropouts: doesn't mean much as such, lots of builders used them. No other markings, serial numbers, etc.; maybe under the paint, but not available now;
(2) Top mounted cable routing: the shifter cables and the rear brake cable are routed along the top of the top tube (a racing feature maybe - racers can carry their bikes more comfortably...?);
(3) Seat tube end cut: is curved, something you see with seat lugs:
(4) Seat post binder bolt: is behind the seat tube (cf mid 90s Specializeds; vs mid-90s Konas mainly have them on the other side of the tube (right?);
(5) Brake cable routing brazed-on noodle on the seat tube.
(6) Rear derailleur cable braze guides: are under the seat stay.
(7) Head tube: the reinforcement rings.

Close but no cigar:
- Trek 830/850 1994-96: (2)/(3)/(4) are about right, but what about (1) and (5)? (6) & (7) not there...
- Gary Fisher Hoo Koo E Koo and Aquila 1993-94: just about everything right (incl "brake snake rear cable guide") except seat post size (27.2 mm)...

Measurements:
- Weight: 2.044 kg/ 4.321 lbs (incl the headset cups and the bottle cage bolts)
- Steerer: 1 1/8 inch
- Seatpost: 26.6 mm
- BB (British): 68 mm
- Dropout spacing: 135 mm
- Top Tube: 590 mm (c-c); 615 mm (effective); 28.8 mm (diameter out)
- Seat Tube: 435 mm (c-t); 390 mm (c-c); 28.6 mm (diameter out)
- Head Tube: 110 mm; 36.5 mm (diameter out)
- Down Tube: 32 mm (diameter out)
- Chainstay: 420 mm
- Reach: 460 mm

If anyone knows what this frame is and could help me identify it, I would be most grateful. All input appreciated, any ideas or suggestions are most welcome.

Cheers

Attachment:
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UnknownMtbFrame_03_min.jpg
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UnknownMtbFrame_01 – Min.jpg
UnknownMtbFrame_01 – Min.jpg [ 272.24 KiB | Viewed 1170 times ]


Last edited by P_451 on Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:24 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:51 am 
Retro Guru
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Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:51 am
Posts: 272
Location: Bolton
Can't offer any suggestions (have had a quick look), but interested to know what it is.

Certainly looks very kona-ish to me, but you obviously have a better knowledge of why it can't be one!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:38 pm 
Dirt Disciple
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Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:07 pm
Posts: 18
The devil is in the detail. I agree, the overall look & feel is kona-ish, yes, but the details are not there - at least, all of them in one go. E.g. I suppose very early Konas have brazed-on noodles, but top mounted routings for all three cables...? The Kona/Ritchey collab...? Etc.

However, when you look at the early Konas (e.g. '89 Explosif) and see the similarities, my mid-90s estimation can be misleading; the frame can be older - or not...


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:52 pm 
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
retrobike rider / Gold Trader

Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:48 am
Posts: 7608
Location: Bristol
I've had a stumpjumper and a Saracen with that style of cable routing before.

The Saracen has their typical pierced top tube

stumpjumper was too long ago to remember in detail

the curved top of the seat tube kinda says framebuilder to me. P2's were a common choice for custom builders too.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:12 pm 
Dirt Disciple
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Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:07 pm
Posts: 18
Back in the mid to late 90s, Specialized - as did Schwinn earlier - seemed to spec a lot of Ritchey on their bikes, and that's why I checked them first. By the way, my frame had a Ritchey seat post, definitely vintage (and so maybe had been there from the very beginning), and after the TB on the steerer, I almost expected to find a Nitto stamp on it...

Saracen has traditionally routed cables along not the top but the side of the top tube, right...

If we go further back to the past, we'll find more and more of those curved seat tube tops, and this maybe indicates that the frame is more early(-to-mid) 90s than mid-90s.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:05 pm 
BoTY & PoTM Winner
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Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:19 pm
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Location: KEEPING THEM SAFE FROM HARM, ANYWAY I CAN....!
Its a KHS, which also came with the same fork you have as Standard fitment. I hope that helps.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:06 pm 
Dirt Disciple
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Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:07 pm
Posts: 18
Vintage KHS with a 1 1/8 inch steerer would be an uncommon combo... Could you be more specific, about the model/year? Anyways, I'll look into it - thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:21 pm 
Gold Trader / PoTM Winner / RB Rider
Gold Trader / PoTM Winner / RB Rider
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Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:13 pm
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Location: Royal Forest of Dean (Still looking for the Bear !)
P_451 wrote:
Vintage KHS with a 1 1/8 inch steerer would be an uncommon combo... Could you be more specific, about the model/year? Anyways, I'll look into it - thanks.



Never met him but trust me on this one, Sinnerman knows his onions
You'd need to be a brave man to bet against him.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:24 pm 
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
retrobike rider / Gold Trader

Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:48 am
Posts: 7608
Location: Bristol
I had a flick through the "show us your KHS" thread and all seem to use a bridge stop for the brake cable not a pipe


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:42 pm 
Old School Grand Master
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Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:12 pm
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Location: Barry
Not a KHS, but no idea what.


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