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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:22 pm 
retrobike rider
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Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:04 pm
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Location: A wretched hive of scum and villainy...
Eccentric...the lightest available option, a Bushnell adds around 200g,
Disc tabs...say 50g
Roughly 10% longer tubes for a 29er...180g

So at least 430g of the 650g extra can easily be justified in the spec and sizing.
The rest of the feel will be down to the fatter, stiffer tubes dictated by modern fashion and the EN test.

All the best,


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:14 am 
retrobike rider
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Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:51 pm
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Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire
GB wrote:
My 1996 Yo Eddy is 1850g. A 2012 Salsa El Mariachi was 2500g. Lugging around an extra 2lbs in the frame makes the modern one feel harsh, dead and heavy. Much prefer the ride of the older ones but then they wouldn’t pass the CEN tests which seem to require the frame to survive being ridden at speed into a wall...

It's not a car! Nothing much would protect you if you hit a wall at speed, so what does it matter how strong it Is? I see plenty of idiots not wearing helmets these days, so what's the point of EN? Another law to keep people in jobs and spoil the fun in the modern world. Thank goodness we still have our old steel! :D


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:48 am 
King of the Skip Monkeys
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It seems to have been forgotten that frames have been made of lightweight materials for around century and were designed to cope with rough roads and survive competition long before the MTB.

I could describe the off-road behaviour of some 700c bikes as pretty decent 29'ers!


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:39 am 
Retro Guru

Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:26 pm
Posts: 314
Location: French Alps
legrandefromage wrote:
I could describe the off-road behaviour of some 700c bikes as pretty decent 29'ers!

I've ridden a 1980s road bike (a peugot "adolescent's" bike, not 700c) down our trails at work. Ripped the gears off and ran it single speed. Brakes were far from adequate, I didn't hit any of the big jumps and walked one bit, but did all the trails apart from the double black without breaking anything.

Stained my underwear, though.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:47 pm 
Dirt Disciple

Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 6:10 pm
Posts: 32
danson67 - the El Mar doesn’t have an EBB. It has swinger dropouts (although those also add weight).

The “ridden into a wall” comment was how Sam at Singular explained CEN tests to me at one point in the past - seemed a good analogy and is why their new frames are heavier than the v1.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:17 pm 
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
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Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:48 am
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Location: Bristol
Certainly at least some el mariachis have EBB... http://salsacycles.com/bikes/archive/el_mariachi1


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:31 pm 
MacRetro rider
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Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:06 pm
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Location: Roamin' in the gloamin'
Gaddmeister wrote:
It's not a car! Nothing much would protect you if you hit a wall at speed, so what does it matter how strong it Is? I see plenty of idiots not wearing helmets these days, so what's the point of EN? Another law to keep people in jobs and spoil the fun in the modern world. Thank goodness we still have our old steel! :D


True, but with 29er wheels and 5" travel 35mm stanchion suspension forks that's a hell of a lot of extra leverage compared to narrow bladed rigid forks of retro builds. Crash head on and an old fork will bend, a modern sus fork won't (much). We've all known the local daredevil kid who bent their forks at the crown. Older bikes were designed for a different style of riding and modern bikes are expected to cope with bigger features at higher speed than retro bikes ever were. That's not to say they can't but you'll be getting a lot nearer the limits on an old bike.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:38 pm 
Retro Guru

Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:28 pm
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Location: Almeria, Spain
Question for the law makers. If the 90's frames are / were so weak why have they survived in their thousands to this day?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:43 pm 
King of the Skip Monkeys
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clubby wrote:
Gaddmeister wrote:
It's not a car! Nothing much would protect you if you hit a wall at speed, so what does it matter how strong it Is? I see plenty of idiots not wearing helmets these days, so what's the point of EN? Another law to keep people in jobs and spoil the fun in the modern world. Thank goodness we still have our old steel! :D


True, but with 29er wheels and 5" travel 35mm stanchion suspension forks that's a hell of a lot of extra leverage compared to narrow bladed rigid forks of retro builds. Crash head on and an old fork will bend, a modern sus fork won't (much). We've all known the local daredevil kid who bent their forks at the crown. Older bikes were designed for a different style of riding and modern bikes are expected to cope with bigger features at higher speed than retro bikes ever were. That's not to say they can't but you'll be getting a lot nearer the limits on an old bike.



Not really true, more likely the frame would go than the fork, 'old' steel forks are very strong and can often be put on a jig to be put back into shape.

Modern bikes are built for downhill and trail centres, the bikes and centres each get more gnarly for each other whereas the 'trails' stay the same. Normal old off road bikes are designed for that and do the job very well. The worry is that bikes will end up only ever being thrown into cars and driven to trail centres. What it is to actually ride a bicycle out in the real world will end up being forgotten in the shouty world of trail centres, magazines and yootooob.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:47 pm 
Old School Grand Master
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Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:12 pm
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Location: Barry
Graaaaaavel bike for them out of the door missions LGF.


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